Questions for ALuminum Block boiler manufacturers...

Mark Eatherton1

I've heard that 6.5 is ideal for aluminum.

I've heard that certain AL compatible glycols have a pH of 8.5

I know for a fact that ferrous components exposed to pH of 6.5 will cause rapid detoriation of the ferrous components,

So what's the answer (other than using a stainless steel boiler)?

I can't have my cake and eat it too, but I don't want your boiler pH eating my system LUNCH.

Are we going to have to isolate the AL boiler block from the rest of the system with flat plate heat exchangers?

Or are we going to have to use all non ferrous (EXPENSIVE) components on the water side of the system?

Prying minds want to know.

Any chemical treatment companies care to respond? Drew? Mr Hunt?

ME

Ted_9

I want answers too

From what I here Mark, aluminum has been used in Europe for almost 20 years and they use steel panel rads.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Floyd_7

For the WM Ultra....

check out pages 5 and 24....

says 7.0 to 8.5.... most water in the US would fall within that range...

Floyd

hr

ME

where did you hear the 6.5 number?

Remember when inhibitors are added to water the ph is changed. Regular (clean) water in a boiler may be fine in the mid 7 ph. Add chemicals or inhibitors and 10- 11 becomes the result. IE hydronic glycols, Rhomar chemicals, etc.

Automotive glycols are used and have been for years with aluminum engine and cooling components. Those also run higher ph. Or they better

Glycols aor chemicals below 7 indicate a problem and need to be buffered or flushed. If the ph falls that low in a glycoled hydronic system look for the cause. generally glycol or inhibitors do not just fail without some other influnce. Bad blend water, flux, oils, overheating, etc.

hot rod

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dconnors

actually.......

The right cast aluminum fares better than stainless steel as it is more flexible and thus does not get stress cracks over time. Generally the PH can be between 6.5 and 7.5 with no real issues. We use all standard components with no special provisions other than the PH range and an approved additive like Fernox. Considering that we havent lost a block due to wear in about 20 years says something for our special cast aluminum.

Ted_9

dconners, what about corrosion on the steel radiators in Europe. Any advanced corrosion?

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dconnors

corrosion

I cant speak for Europe but; with Fernox you get inhibitors. You must make sure that you also have adequate air elimination on your system. O2 corrosion is never good and has to be addressed.

hr

Fernox products

were sold through Heatway years ago.

In addition to these they had a SuperFloc which was a cleaner to be used before you added chemicals. A very important step!

The also had a good leak sealant, looked like Elmers glue.

The Fernox labels recomment a minimun of 7 ph, also.

There were some issues with shelf life and proper EPA or MSD labels on these products, as I recall. I imagine, or hope, they have this worked out.

I think Rhomar has notched up the bar when it comes to an "all metal" hydronic treatment and antifreeze inhibitor. They have spent a lot of time and money with a topnotch chemical manufacture to build thir products.

hot rod

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George_10

Our cleaner will raise the pH for the short time

it is in the system, but the metals are also passivated. After a thorough flushing, the treatment product, when added, will protect aluminum the same as it does all other metal components. The treatment and the cleaner both passivate the metals (put a film on them) to protect them from corrosion. The aluminum is protected exactly the same as all other metals (copper, iron, steel, brass, stainless).

In addition the treatment product has an oxygen scavenger in it which binds molecularly with the water's freed oxygen.

Oxygen is needed for the most common type of corrosion.

There is also a binder for the water's minerals which molecularly grabs the freed calcium. This feature helps to prevent scale.

The pH buffer in our treatment product will help to maintain the system water above 7.5 pH. This is important as this is a safe area for all metals.

Due to the specific metal protection both of our products enjoy, Hydro-Solv 9100 (cleaner) and Pro-Tek 922 (treatment) will more than adequately protect these new aluminum boilers and the other metals found in these hotwater heating systems.

The bottom line is both products were designed for use in multi-metal systems, including aluminum. These products represent advanced planning in the care of modern closed loop hotwater heating systems.

George_10

Our multifaceted treatment product

Pro-Tek 922 takes care of the oxygen problem with an oxygen scavenger. It handles what comes in via the fill water and also any oxygen diffusion that takes place within the heating system. It also protects all metals within the system, including aluminum.

We have the answers, we just need to make the boiler manufacturers aware of what we have to offer in the way we protect their boilers and help to maintain the design efficiency of these same boilers. We believe this is a win-win situation for all concerned. The manufacturer, the contractor and the home owner. Especially the home owner as this party is paying all the bills and needs to receive trouble free service at high operating efficiency.

I would be happy to answer any questions here on The Wall or through private e-mail.

Mark Eatherton1

Not sure where I heard or saw the number...

but based on Dconnors response, its in the range.

My reason for asking is numerous fold, as I explained. I want to make sure I don't destroy the ferrous components in the system, and I need the glycnoids for freeze protection on a snowmelt system.

Monitor Products and other manufactureres going to way in? Maybe we can get a consensus...

ME

Dale Pickard

Thanks George

Sounds like we need to get more familiar with your products. I promise to do so.

What can you tell us about the inhibitors used in DowFrost PG? How might use of your products affect the use of DowFrost?

Dale

STEVE N

PH

> Sounds like we need to get more familiar with

> your products. I promise to do so.

>

> What can

> you tell us about the inhibitors used in DowFrost

> PG? How might use of your products affect the use

> of DowFrost?

>

> Dale

STEVE N

PH

ACCORDING TO WEIL MCLAIN THEY WANT THE PH FROM 7.0 T0 8.5 IN THE ULTRA. AS FOR FREEZE PROTECTION, WE USE CRYOTEC AL. IT WAS DEVELOPED FOR ALUM BOILERS. ITS ABOUT DOUBLE THE COST OF CRYOTEC 100.

STEVE

STEVE N

PH

ACCORDING TO WEIL MCLAIN THEY WANT THE PH FROM 7.0 T0 8.5 IN THE ULTRA. AS FOR FREEZE PROTECTION, WE USE CRYOTEC AL. IT WAS DEVELOPED FOR ALUM BOILERS. ITS ABOUT DOUBLE THE COST OF CRYOTEC 100.

STEVE

Mark Eatherton1

WHY....

are you YELLING? :-)

I also wonder why the cost is double. Sounds like people taking advantage to me...

ME