Came Across an Air line system this week....Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3 · March 2005

Its a one pipe system in an 1,100 sq ft home. The rads have Hoffman air line vents and down on the basement it looks like it has an old Hofmann vacumn vent. A couple of the rads have standard air vents. The lines are nearly all still in place.
There are no signs of any vacumn pump having ever been used, so I believe the system used the collapsing steam to create vacumn. A compact Burnham Holiday boiler (oversized) is making steam and appears to be in good working order and firing about 76% efficient. It is rated at about 375 EDR, with the current rad load about 178 EDR(I just replaced a 75 edr rad in an 150 sq ft room with a 35 EDR)
I suspect the best thing to do is to eliminate the vacuum valve in the basement, hook up the few rads using air vents to the return lines and let it be, as I understand self-induced vacuum does not work well with modern on/off boilers. If balancing is needed, I suspect I would need to install valves on the rad return lines to adjust the venting rate or modify a TRV.
The other option would be to install adjustable air vents or TRVS on all the rads so the the heating can be balanced.

It would be great to set up a venturi ejector to use the air lines to suck the air out of the system, but this is a rental.

Gas usage does seem quite high.

Any suggestions?

Boilerpro

Mark Eatherton1 · February 2005

I think..

that line used to be connected to the chimney didn't it?

ME

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

Didn't see anythng in Dan's books

on that, but this system is a little different than whats in them.

Boilerpro

Boiler Guy · February 2005

Got any

pics of the system components. I think I found a similar system a while ago, but all of the old components are missing. I would sure like to see what some of the original stuff looked like.

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

Not much to see

The radiator air line valves are the same ones in the current Hofmann catalog and the main vacuum vent in the basement looks like a typical ancient hoffman vent with a little flapper on top. There's a picture of a #6 on pg 128 of the LA companion...I believe that's it.

Boilerpro

Steamhead · February 2005

Probably not

the air-line systems I'm familiar with used steam- or water-driven ejectors to produce the vacuum.

But venting into the chimney thru a large thermostatic trap would be the easiest way to apply a slight vacuum to a system like this.

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Mad Dog · February 2005

Very cool

A Paul or Pall system I thought...right, Frank? MD

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Steamhead · February 2005

Likely either that or an Eddy

there were a few others but their names escape me now....

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Robert O'Connor_3 · February 2005

paul system

interestingly enough the paul or air line system was just used to remove the air faster so the steam arrive sooner. the vent you're looking at actually works like a thermostatic trap. it closes when steam hits it. the small pump in the cellar was used to remove air only.

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

They appear to hold up well

The ones in service had several coats of paint on them and they still were holding.

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

I was thinking of something like that

as a possibility. The trap would act as backup should any of the vents fail at the radiators. I guess running at vacuum would not be a good idea?

Steamhead · February 2005

I wouldn't try holding vacuum

for all the reasons I wouldn't do it on straight 1-pipe or Vapor.

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gerry gill · February 2005

BP- why not restore it?

this is what Steve Pajek and myself would do, its inexpensive and works well.. use a grundfos pump to shoot water thru a mono flo tee venturi, hook it to the return pipe. have it energized by a relay that the t-stat uses..it trips and fires off both the boiler and the venturi- use an aquastat to take the venturi out when the end of one of the radiators gets hot...Andrew Paul will smile down on you...and you'll smile back at him ;-)

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

Say Gerry,

> this is what Steve Pajek and myself would do, its

> inexpensive and works well.. use a grundfos pump

> to shoot water thru a mono flo tee venturi, hook

> it to the return pipe. have it energized by a

> relay that the t-stat uses..it trips and fires

> off both the boiler and the venturi- use an

> aquastat to take the venturi out when the end of

> one of the radiators gets hot...Andrew Paul will

> smile down on you...and you'll smile back at him

> ;-)

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

Say Gerry,

have you tried using steam through a monoflow tee to induce vacuum? (like my favorite moline systems) How about firing up the pump before the boiler so it can create vacuum in the system before the boiler fires, getting it to boil water at a lower temp to improve efficiency, then at the end of the cycle it would just go back to atmosheric pressure?

Boilerpro_3 · February 2005

Yea, that's what I thought

Just use vacuum on the return line to give quick distribution when the boiler is firing.

gerry gill · February 2005

we haven't tried steam

thru the venturi, just water...but you got me thinking about that now...the hole would need to be brazed smaller in the cone, but thats easy..you can run it exactly like you describe as far as firing goes..we have this set-up tempoarily on Steve Pajeks own house on his two pipe mouat system and maintain a negative 5 inch water column in the return piping and the mouat water column gauge registers only 1 ounce positive pressure at the boiler..we heat his house with only one ounce at the boiler but about 4 ounces differential.. see how thats working..we call Steves house the lab, as he is kind enough (and curious) enough to keep experimenting with steam systems since the manufacturers dont do much research in it anymore...nothing like re-invention..sometimes i feel like i'm digging in some ones coffin..but you can bet if they are watching from someplace they would be smiling down on us...and you know the deadmen who built that system would shake your hand just for wanting to restore it to its former glory..

Steamhead · February 2005

Gerry, I have to see this

next time I'm out your way. If enough of us gather at the same time, maybe we can call it "Steamstock"?

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gerry gill · February 2005

any time Frank,

would be a pleasure.. Steve has a peerless boiler that we keep playing with..right now it has a german maxitrol two stage gas valve hooked to it to take the piping pickup factor out when the main gets hot..one side is piped parallel flow, the other side counter flow..sometimes it has main vents..sometimes its in the chimney with a one inch vent pipe..lately its a vacuum pump (venturi style) pulling the air out..we have a steam trap test station and an air flow test station..our problem is both that we are nuts and our wives let us be this way..actually we are just a couple of really curious steam junkies who have access to a steam boiler...thats a dangerous combination, hehe, and we read alot of old books so we keep trying to duplicate the systems of the dead men..we have a bid thats supposedly accepted to restore a paul system, that led us to develope this water pump method, obviously not an original idea..then of course our curiosity got the best of us and we hooked it to his system..with great results thus far.

steve_6 · February 2005

paul systems

Lots of good stuff here. But first of all as TP said the pull on the system is just to remove air, very similar to your Moline systems you have in Chicago. All Paul Systems can be restored to their original working condition. The systems we've seen in Cleveland were vented straight into the chimney. And that would be the simplest way to restore it. That being said Andrew Paul was probably the most inventive of all the heating system inventors. He has more patents to his name than any of the other system inventors. His ultimate goal was to remove the air from the system as fast as possible through negative pressure, which went from a simple pipe in the chimney to

Boiler Guy · February 2005

BP ,Steamhead

I posed some questions a few weeks back about my system but I definitely got a lot more info out of this thread! Sorry I don't have the LA companion. I think it was out of print before I got my books. Mad Dog, you seem to know a fair bit about the components in the Paul system; do you have any material; sources I could access?

patrick linhardt · February 2005

steamstock

Hi Steamhead, Gerry, steam junkies all,

Love the idea of a Steamstock, I'm in.

Best regards, Pat

Robert O'Connor_3 · February 2005

steamstock.....

i'm in! tp

Unknown · February 2005

OK

say when

Noel

Dave Bush · February 2005

I'd travel

For that.

Boiler Guy · February 2005

I'd

travel too. What about somewhere in PA

Dave Bush · February 2005

Sounds great.

I'm in the Poconos.:=}

t. tekushan · February 2005

i'm in

I'll join you!

I did a little trick in our building here. From the pipe sizing I suspect we had a vapor system. There's an LGB here now. Nothing else is left. Its a two pipe system with the boiler room on one end of the building. Firewall that separates the two halves of the building has a drip station just before it. We always had two different temps in the building: Desert like before the drip station, somewhat brisk after. So I made this gizmo than includes a temp sensor and a timer circuit, a couple 'o relays and a vacuum pump (cleverly disguised as a small shop vac). When the steam advances, the temp sensor (midway up the main) trips the timer and pump. The pump gently pulls the return pressure down a modest 8 oz or so. This action also gets the steam to expand a bit and allows the boiler to send an extra plume of steam into the system (aided by the slightly lowered boiling temp). The pump is only on long enough to quickly establish steam flow into ALL system radiators at virtually the same time. It only takes about 2 and a half minutes. The pump shuts off. From here on in, the natural vacuum created by condensing steam in the radiators maintains even distribution.

We now have a 1 degree differential from hottest to coolest apartments and stores in the building. No more open windows, no more complaints, lower gas consumption. Uh huh...

The gizmo resets after the boiler shuts down and the main cools slightly.

Pretty nifty, huh?

-Terry in Cleveland

gerry gill · February 2005

PA would work for me.

sounds like a steaming good time.

gerry gill · February 2005

hey Terry, us clevelanders

are an imaginitive bunch arn't we..thats probably cause we dont have distractions like baseball teams or football teams ...wait..we do have those,,,sort of..

t. tekushan · March 2005

yea.

been a lot more creative for a few years here

don_52 · March 2005

oh yeah...

maybe in a basement near me soon...

don_52 · March 2005

steam_jet

coming to a basement near me...

gerry gill · March 2005

just remember,

the air that is sucked out, it still has to go somewhere..

don_52 · March 2005

why certainly...

didn't put the annotations in, vents up on left, like a
tree of #2's.

this is just something that BP and myself have talked about
in the past...

wouldn't want to go sub atmospheric, too difficult to control, plus it would take me into that "not for purpose
intended" area, which is not the place to be.

this is only meant to do the vacuum cleaner routine, like
the other post.

imagine reducing the steaming cycle by 5 minutes out of 30
in an area that has a 270 day heating season, a full third
of which the boiler is actually on and getting the same net
output.

i have, $504 a year, present rate with taxes and conveyance
fees, that's $10,785 @ 5% increase per year in beer change
over 15 years.

next up, say goodbye to standby losses, use the basement
as a buffer!

cheers!

don_52 · March 2005

...

Boilerpro_3 · March 2005

Hi ya, Don

Got your E-Mail. One thing that might need looking at, once the steam gets through the ejector, it will tend to close the air vents. You may want to get a condensor pipe or radiator in there to condense the steam before it gets to the air vents. If you get keep the pressure at you current max of 3 ounces, that ejector will act as a metering orifice and limit the amount of steam getting past it. As long as you can condense all that steam in the condensing pipe or radiator, you can even get rid of the vents. Still thinking along the lines of the old Moline systems, which were set up this way.
I'll give you a call when I get a chance. A, what was supposed to be, rather quiet week has turned into several 13 hour work days.

BP

Came Across an Air line system this week....Boilerpro

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