Gortons??

ThermalJake · February 2005

I placed two #1's at the end of my 27 ft, 2inch main. I also placed a #2 at the end of my 43 ft, 2 inch main. I am running about 1/2 lb pressure at the boiler, so the normal 2lb rating of 4.1 CFM/#1, and 16.83CFM/#2 will be pro-rated,right?

This altered venting rate will be consistent for the central radiator return vent. I just took off the old "air eliminator", and placed one #2 at the end of the return. I expect this to be grossly insufficient to vent the entire system of risers and radiators. The questions is: How does one figure the proper venting rate for the retern main? Do I have to call Ken all the time?(he'll love that) Do I figure the volume of the risers and the radiators? (I can do the pipes, but how else to do the rads except treating them like multiple pipes?) Is there a table where someone has already created a conversion from EDR?

I ran this thing without any vent on the end for 2 days, and steam never reached the end of the radiator return. (like it is supposed to) The return vent is good insurance anyway.

Okay, enough from me.
Thanks for any input.
Jake

michael_15 · February 2005

Volume for radiators

You can get a table in a document by Burnham. Google for "htghelper" and pick the top (only) result. It sorts it by EDR for column/tube/thin tube radiators. I'm not sure this is necessary, though -- you'd have to wait for a professional to provide input. Sounds like two-pipe steam, which I have no familiarity with.

Where did you get the 16.8 CFM rating for the #2? I've never seen published vent rates, but that seems awfully high. 16.8 CF is around 125 gallons, which means 2 gallons a second.

-Michael

ThermalJake · February 2005

Thanks Michael

I see where you got the conversion from CFM to gallons (per second), but isn't that conversion used to match your return system to your supply system? In this case I'm not going to get or need gallons per hour. I'm just venting air. I thought it went by the volume of the air you want to vent, multiplied by the number of lbs of pressure.
Example: a 2 inch pipe has an internal volume of 1 cu ft for every 10 linear feet of pipe. Therefore, 20 linear feet of pipe is equal to 2 cu ft of air volume. At 2 psig, this would need to vent at a rate of 4 CFM. (this is the capacity of a Gorton #1). And Gorton recommends that you use one #1 for every 20 feet of 2 inch pipe at 2 psig.

I thought a #2 was around 4 times the rate of a #1. You probable have placed one, two or three #1's on a manifold, but probably when you get to four, you would use a #2, right? Aren't they rated for 80 ft of 2 in pipe at 2psig?

If this is all true, then the volume of a 1 inch pipe is 1 cu ft for every 13 linear ft. With this or another conversion, I can find the volume of air in the mains, risers, and maybe the rads, but I don't know if this is the right method. The tables on that Burnham site are very helpful, but they don't convert to volume capacity of radiators. If I'm not getting it, would someone please slap me?
Jake

Mad Dog · February 2005

Steamhead has all the calcs.....................me?

I'm math-lazy (which sometimes gets me in to trouble!). In general, I have found, that even a small 2 pipe system need 2-3 Gorton #2s in place of the old receiver/air eliminator. The only time, I use #1 is on small one-pipe systems at the end of the mains. There is no substutute for doing the math, I just have the time to do it all the time, and these "rules of thumb" gained through experience, work for me. Mad Dog

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ThermalJake · February 2005

Thanks MAD DOG

Your input is always appreciated.
By the way, are you located in Floral Park? If so, is "The Village Inn" still there?

Any Help from Steamhead would be great. Otherwise I'll call Ken.

Jake

Mad Dog · February 2005

Ahhhh!!!! The old \"V.I.\" as we called it

Still there but called J Fallon's Tap Room. Different crowd now 20 year olds. The last owner was Billy Moreno. Did you hang out there? Throw some names at me. Did yoiu grow up here? Mad Dog

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Steamhead · February 2005

On Vapor dry returns

the amount of air you get depends on how many radiators there are amd the device the air must pass thru- traps, water seals, bafflers or supply orifices. The latter two generally pass more air then the first two. Sometimes you have to experiment!

Do you still have your Thermal orifice system? How many radiators? Total EDR?

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michael_15 · February 2005

Try page 50

of the burnham document. You can convert from gallons to cubic feet; I don't remember the conversion offhand but I believe it's around 7.5 gallons per cubic foot. This allows you to convert for both radiators (by EDR --> gallons --> cubic feet) and pipes (linear feet --> gallons --> cubic feet). I'd check on your statement that 2 inch pipe is 1 ft^3 per 10 feet; that doesn't seem to agree with the values on the second chart on this page. One or the other could be wrong.

-Michael

ThermalJake · February 2005

My Father and uncles grew up on Ward St in the mid sixties. Always racing Hemis and Stingrays out of there. My godfather still lives on Concord. I'm younger than that, but too old for those 20 year olds. The last time I was there had to be 10 years ago (at least) and the bartender still knew some of the older folks. My mother was from Uniondale, and rented an apartment above it somewhere.

Maybe I'll give you a call if I'm in town. I'd like to see your system.

Jake

ThermalJake · February 2005

Hi Steamhead, I have 8rads. 6 have the orificed inlet valves, the other two I have throttled slightly, and I have no steam on the returns. I haven't had to take them apart yet, so I don't know if someone added drilled orifices. The round handles look and operate like newer ones. No traps, water seals, or baffles. The rad load is 503 EDR. The old eliminator hasn't been hot anytime I've ever checked it. I don't think I could get steam to hit it if I wanted to.

I have other repairs to make with this one, but I couldn't figure out how to determine the capacity.

Thanks again Steamhead
Jake

Mad Dog · February 2005

They surely knew my

father in law, Don Spiess - he lived on the Northside of town and burned rubber all over town too - with hot rods. Yep gimme a heads up and well have some beer and critique my system. Mad Dog

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Steamhead · February 2005

A single #2

on the dry return should be fine.

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ThermalJake · February 2005

Yeah, that's what I thought also. But if you take the geometric volume of the cylindar created by the cross section of pipe, (Pi*r^2)*lin ft{in inches}, you get volume in cu inches. Then you can convert to cu ft.

Maybe my conversion is off.

Jake

ThermalJake · February 2005

That is what I put on there. Am I correct to assume that steam will probably never hit it? I guess the venting rate could be increased or decreased regardless of this, but if I do, I might overproduve condensate, right?

Jake

ThermalJake · February 2005

Here's a short list: John O'Malley, Gerry O'Malley, Tom O'Malley, Pat Nummey, Kevin Buckley, Jimmy McWilliams,

Steamhead · February 2005

If you keep the pressure low

steam will never reach that vent. But you still want it there, in case the Vaporstat goes bad, pigtail gets plugged etc. so steam won't leave the system.

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michael_15 · February 2005

checking the math now. . .

I think you might be accidentally using 2 inches for the radius instead of the actual radius of about 1 inch.

3.14159 * (1 inch)^2 = 3.14159 square inches * 10 linear feet = 452 cubic inches.

1 cubic foot = (12 inches)^3 = 1728 cubic inches.

So 10 linear feet of 2 inch pipe is approximately 452/1728 = 0.26 cubic feet.

-Michael

ThermalJake · February 2005

I should have enough vents to allow the steam to move up all the risers and into all the rads, right? In other words, the steam velocity should be inhibited by the frictional pressure drop, and the volume of the steam at whatever pressure you run, but not by the inability of the vent to vent enough. (?????)

So the vent(s) should act as if there is a wide open hole in the end of the return,(the hole in the vent should not be smaller than the venting capacity of the pipe) except when you need a safety shut off.

Is there such thing as too much vent?

Jake

ThermalJake · February 2005

Actually, I think that I screwed up converting from cu ft to cu in. So, 10 lin ft is 120 inches, * 3.14 = 376.8 My math is off. Twice that would be 20 feet of pipe. That's 753.6 cu in. And that is 0.44 cu ft.

Am I right so far?

If the Gorton #1 can vent 4.1 CFM, then it can vent this 20 ft of pipe in 6 seconds. I have a 27 ft main that gets steam hot pretty quickly. I'll have to time it.

Jake

Steamhead · February 2005

It's possible

to over-vent one-pipe radiators since the runouts are counterflow. This holds the condensate back and causes banging. On Vapor, I usually see inadquate venting.

Does the air make a lot of noise as it's leaving the vent? If so, the vent isn't big enough.

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ThermalJake · February 2005

No, I haven't heard it at all but I'll spend some more time there to see. I think I'll move to insulation next and come back to the main vent if I need it.

Thanks as always.

Jake

Ken_8 · February 2005

All Polish

and Italians I see (;-o)

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Gortons??

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