WM ULTRA

Floyd_7

or try to call Steve Stultz in tech. support.....219-879-6561 ext.442 sstultz@weil-mclain.com
1 or the other of these guys you should be able to contact....

BTW...what's the problem?????

Floyd

Kal Row

need email of ULTRA guru tech at WM - tnx

sent request through their website 2days ago - and nadah!!!

kal

ULTRA PLUS QUESTION...

i am bidding on a job, see my design in rena.pdf
and then look at plusq.pdf

need to know which is the best way to go with a pair of pluses, and what are the real correct delta-t's and p's for the plusq.pdf

i dont want a single point of failure and am using MBS, do i size each for 75% of load, with, or without, the indirects - cause i really would like to produce heat at the same time as hot water - i need about 130K for heat, and 50k for HW, technicaly a pair of ultra 80's should do

ps i am gone until sun morn - thanks

jerry scharf_2

dumb question

Kal,

You show the hot water coming into the bottom of the indirect coil and the return out the top. I always thought you wanted to run the hot into the top and the return out the bottom. Am I confused?

jerry

kal

that's the way it is designed by wm...

and is that way in all their diagrams

http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/Water_Heaters/PLUS_Line_Manual.pdf

i think it has something to do with maximizing condensing, cause unlike heating, where you exit to the system with the honest water, and the coolest return, hits the coolest flue gases, over here, you want to hit the coldest potable water, with the hottest boiler water to maximize heat transfer, and cause convention inside the "indirect", what I did miss and have added in the attached updated system diag, is a spring check on the IDMHW return, so that the heat from the “indirect”s don’t migrate to the system loop – as a Hydronic engineers, we say where the water goes, not the other way around

what I had not put into my diag, for simplicity was the potable water split return to the AUX port on the plus see page 37 of the above manual – they have a shorter dip tube for warmer return water

while I still want to know the best way to pipe two plus’s, for this job, I am going to use the new “plus 120”, so I don’t need two for capacity – but I might, for future jobs, so I still want to know – as for the temps, if I worked on their rise times and flow tables, I could probably come up with the correct numbers – I am just spoiled by software that does this for me – besides their engineers have a lot more experience with the plus and know what flies and what doesn’t – though, sometimes I wonder, if Floyd doesn’t know more than the WM people

attached updated pdf

GH

ULTRAQUESTION

YOU should take a look at the Monitor Boiler line of products AWESOME stuff MZ BOILER .COM

Floyd_7

Kal...

I'll have some ideas for you tommorrow.... had a terrible week and a wicked cold.... feel like crap tonight... going to bed.

Thanks!!

Floyd

kal

speak of the devil...

this lady had oil until now, to the tune of 500 per month, and i had recommended a slant fin intrepid sealed or your MONITOR FCX - but they just got gas on the block and she doesn’t want to hear about oil - her oil supplier screwed himself out of a customer – he cant blame me – as I was just as prepared to do a high efficiency system with oil, she should not be paying more than 500 for 2 months, the heat loss used to be 85kbtu, and here she was firing a 1.25 oil burner and a .75 hot water boiler, "zo dat ahs daey zay, iz dat"

this job is going to give me a lot of preconceived grief. And she is throwing away all her copper baseboard for cast iron radiators under windows – trouble is getting enough radiation in, to satisfy the heat loss per room, I recommended the myson panels instead - have to get a full print brochure for her – but I am insisting on radiant for the grade level slab under the den – it will be imposable to heat otherwise – those are the worst, a slab above the frost line and no sun – fo-git-abow-eet – radiant is the only cost effective heat source for this – the good thing on this job will be that the central air handlers will also have gas air furnaces - call me a belt and supenders guy

Floyd_7

See what you think....

Okay Kal,
Here goes…..

I’ll make a list of the things I see here and start with some simple stuff…


1. The PVC vent pipe can be 3” on the 105 no problem

2. If it was me I would use the B&G Check-trol on all the zone pumps and stay with a pump w/o a check.

3. You are way over engineering this thing…….do away with the pumps and diff press. Bypass, just past the air eliminator and just simply pull the water off of the supply and return back to the return header. Use flow setters if you want to control the flow rates.

4. Move the supply to the indirects closer to the boiler tees’s it does not have to be after the air eliminator, once you have the system purged it will work just fine.

5. Upsize the pipe where the boiler tee’s and the indirect tee’s are to 2” you will get better water flow….

6. Upsize the piping to the indirects to 1-1/4, it should be the same size as the boiler piping.

7. Upsize the piping to the boiler tee’s to 1-1/2” for better flow.

8. If using two indirects, use 1 pump for each indirect and header them the same as you do the boilers, as close to the takeoff’s as possible.

9. Look into controlling the boilers with AM-4’s and a Tekmar 265, it will give you much better control than the WM MBS…..

10. By strategly placing a shutoff valve on the retrun header you can then purge all of the zones through one boiler drain.... actually I have found that with a good air eliminator and "pumping away" that often the system will purge it's self.

Thanks for the kind words.... but I'm only a peaon that tries to use a bit of common sense and the 2 ounces of mushy brain matter that the good Lord has bestowed on me.
I'm sure you'll have some ??'s back for me so fire away....
I would think that the 1-120 would be a better way to go...
also with the CI rads and the floor heat I wouldn't wory about the priorty.... it will work fine with the indirect on priority......

Floyd

kal

thanks and Q's by the numbers

#1: ok – but actually, I was thinking about making an outer 6” duct inner 3” , and use an aux blower to mix fresh air and eject – to make a clear exhaust

#2: the checktrols have a 200f max rating - even though the taco or Grundfos checks which are made out of the same stuff have a 230f rating - so i am a little nervous

#3: eliminate which pumps? the system pumps or the zones pumps - and if the zones, then i would have to go back to zone valves like one of my earlier designs - so you like circuit setters better than a dif-bypass – but the cost of one d146 is a lot less then 5 circuit setters – have seen a system with a ci boiler that had no system pump, just a supply rail and a pumps per zone feeding back to the boiler’s return – I am hoping to redo that system as well

#4:ok i just copied one of wm's docs

#5,6,7: upsizing is almost always a good idea - will go with that – also make close-t’s easier, as the rule is less than 6 pipe diameters of what you are teeing into, so the bigger the header the more room you have (I guess WM expected you to use a 2” header as they say less than 12” – which would fly with the close-t rules for a 2” header 2*6=12) – the biggest problem with upsizing, is that, the weight of the water in the boiler room piping has increased by a exponential factor, and greatly increased the pipe support needed

#8: implies that you like parallel indirect better and series indirect?, as for the 120, the problem is that the 100 and 120 have no lifetime guarantee

#9: i happen to be a big tekmar fan, thought the AM4's were tough to get - and how would setting the system with the software you are using be with am4 as opposed to mbs?

#10: always like to have individual isolate/purge for service - but i like your idea of putting isolation valves on the system loop supply/ret, so at least i can get away with just one line pressure fresh water connection to the supply rail - to use for purging

will make a new diag to reflect the changes -

thanks a bunch – I just hope the remolding contractor leaves me enough financial room to do this right

TEI

WM Tech Support email

For technical support at Weil-McLain, the correct email address is wmtechnicalsupport@weil-mclain.com.

The previous email addresses posted were for individuals that may not be the correct contacts.

Kal Row

wm's web site had wmtechnicalservices@weil-mclain.com....

and that got me nowhere

Floyd_7

Kal,

Wasn't sure if you would get the drift of what I was thinking but you did very well......
If it were me I would just go with supply and return rails and throw a pump on each loop..... with the CI Rads the flows are not going to be that critical....
yes, I would then just eliminate the "system" pumps and I would just go with 1 purge valve....
Moving the DHW piping close to the boiler tee's will make it that very little of the piping gets any heat when the boilers are just making DHW.....
I think thst you will find that support for the larger pipes to not be that big of an issue.....for me I usually use unistrut and the vibroclamps which will support that weight and more.....
The AM-4's are available now..... that problem may be the Tekmar 265....... Tekmar is in litigation with another Co. over some of the alogirithims used in the control.
I just checked and the Co. I deal with has plenty of both in stock at this time.....

Floyd

Would love to see the revised drawing.... BTW...what do you use to draw them with????? That is one of the things next on my list to do.....

kal

working on it....

i use msft PowerPoint - you can also use visio - which tekmar uses - and you can incorporate stuff from them - they have visio templates on their site - but visio is a little more involved than powerpnt –

visio is actually extremely powerful, as you can incorporate window's software controls into the diag, and have those control change look by software that read a multi channel I/O board, so you can actually have a live diag, that displays what the system is doing , even the connecting lines can be made out of controls that display moving stripes to indicate flow – I once saw a office resource program, that had a map of the office and showed live what was going on in the network, and if you physically moved a computer to another desk, it would show the move right away in the map also – talk about blinking lights – imagine a boiler room with a plasma display….. I love this stuff

Very important is to have the full adobe acrobat so that you can print to a pdf – it’s the only way – a jpeg looses too much

wonder if tekmar is going to have a "TN4" version of the 265 soon - i like the idea of networked boiler controls -

Kal Row

ok floyd: is this what you had in mind?

got your isolation on the system with one pressure purge connection

got your pipe sizes

got indirects closer to boiler maybe too close

got wm's prefered pipeing

what did i miss?

still need my series/parralel and temps question answered

Floyd_7

getting closser.....

boiler piping can be 1-1/4... the black pipes 1-1/2....move the DHW takeoff's to the rails just on either side of the black pipes....put tee's in just like for the boilers and tee off the same as you do for the boilers. Then the rais can be 1-1/2" just upsize the pipe at the 4 tee's where you will have the turbulence of the flows of water going by the tee's while going in/out of the tee's at the same time....the upsizing of the pipes at that point is just to slow down the flows and allow the water less resistance at all the points of convergence......
You are well on the way to a functional system that will be less costly and simpler to install.....
As far as the DHW goes... if it were me and I was installing 2 plus tanks they would be in series...... that way the most of the heating would be done by the first tank and that way I would be running the coldest water possible back to the condensing boiler most of the time......the second tank would just be reserve capacity.....
do you really need a 3/4 recirc line???? just a thought....
I'm attaching a WM pdf water heat manual that I found... may be some helpful info there....notice that they suggest piping the 100 and 120 opposite of the 40/60/80's....

Floyd

kal

and again

put your changes in - though many other manufactures manulas have the indirect off the multi boiler header

did not do series indirects - since using two pluses is only optional, they might not need it

had the manual, tnx, and also noticed the piping dif too, but they run the 100/120 at 190f, the plus 80 or less run at 160 or less, and that probalbly the diff in waranty too

being that a pumped tempering loop has a split return, weil was nice enough to give a half length dip tube aux port for the warm return water

looking for alternatives to the plus - as i can buy 12 reg 40 gal water heaters for the trade price i was quoted for a plus 120 - ouch

need your email so we can compair dealers off-line - send to kalro@pobox.com, tnx

Kal Row

jerry: new diag answers your question....

went over the plus line manual.
the indirects are tanks within tanks and that changes all

floyd was right, i realy had to up the pipe sizes