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Big Sky VitoDens ThermoFin Install

Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
Nice job, Dale. Have you seen the Viessmann Vitodens diagram that omits the mixing valve? The LLH can than be set at the desired curve, eliminating the 3way and motor actuator, except when a high-temp pump circuit is required along with a low temp application.

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  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    Big Sky VitoDens ThermoFin Install

    Hello,

    I thought I'd show off a project that we are presently doing in Montana.

    We work as a team, though as the "President" I am responsible for and pioneered most on what you see one way or another, good or bad, as the case may be.

    Credit where it's due. Our sales associate Brian, spent hours with the customers as they sorted out their options and continues to provide support to the project from our offices. Our engineering associate Andrew Hagen and Pat Reardon are doing the installation with 3 other crew members, Andy M, Scott and Garrett. All the hand work is theirs.

    We make the LLH here. When we first saw Viessmann LLH, we adapted a design I developed years ago that we use to produce our square tube manifolds. Our LLH is 304 is all stainless. The ss half couplings have a step turned in them on our mill and are then silver brazed into the manifold body. We have the end caps laser cut for us complete with mounting holes and holes to place the smaller half coupling used for the sensor and the air vent. They are also silver brazed into place after the end caps are TIG welded onto the body. Andrew H built this header.

    He and Garret used our CNC router and our panel saw to produce the plywood return bends and several bunks worth of 6" plywood sleepers. He and Pat produced the V piping below the boiler.....pretty cool eh? You may not realize that there is a Caleffi manifold enclosure for the slab that is in the wall, but on the other side of the wall......I guess that you figured that out.

    I did this radiant layout, though we have 3 other engineers here that do similar CAD drafting.
    All the loop lengths are balanced as much is possible in the design. The are also fairly short........250'.
    We are using Caleffi manifolds with shut offs and flow regulators. One manifold is located in the wall of the guest bedroom closet. The others are distributed throughout the ample crawlspace. Some of the zoning is done with individual zone valves on the manifold returns and some is done with zone motors on each individual tube. If you zoom in you can see where the manifolds are called out.

    The distribution piping feeding the manifolds is a single set of 1-1/4' lines. That's all that comes back to the mechanical room. We will drive the 3800 ft2 house with a single Grundfos UP 26-64. Oh, and the only reason that we didn't get to do the garage was that the tinner had sold the owner on a ceiling hung, gas unit heater before we got the project. It was already installed.

    There will be no end switch wiring taken back to the mechanical room. This project will also receive a custom build Viessmann K Maticom control and internet access panel. The owner will be able to view and change boiler control settings over the internet. There will be LON sensors placed in all the of the heating zones the information from which will also be uploaded to the internet interface panel. The zones will be operated from tekmar zone controls and tekmar rtus that display all of the zone and outside air temperature information.

    The extrusions are our ThermoFin U product placed 6" o.c. The tubing direction is designed to run perpendicular to the direction of the hardwood finish floor. The general contractor is covering the plates now with sleepers; when that is done, what is left is a flat, dry, plywood nailing surface.

    In our initial design consultations with the owner and his architect and general Contractor, Alan Roos of Coyote Construction, we convinced the owner to invest in a superior insulation package. We should be able to heat this building under design conditions with water temperatures approaching the room air temperatures.

    I attached a jpg and a pdf of the floor layout. Download the pdf to zoom in on the drawing with better resolution.

    Listening to Nora Jones as I write this... isn't she too much!

    Dale
  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    Sure Paul

    Of course, and it's how I would have preferred it for sure. However the story gets a little stranger. The 3 way mix valve that you see will have an HK reset controller on it. Sadly, to my mind, the Comfortrol control in the boiler will not be doing much.

    The reason as I understand it is that the custom K-maticom controls that wil provide the internet interface contains a Vitotronic 300 which apparently the control needs to make the LON connection to the internet. The Comfortrol on the boiler can't make that connection so the substitute the HK control which can.
    Confused yet?

    I gotta tell you I dragged my feet on this big time. I guess I'm getting old but I don't like multiple redundant controls and components that I feel compromise a "mission critical" application. Heating in Montana.

    To accomodate the K maticom we are making this a lot more complicated than it had to be. I dragged my feet and complained until I felt that I had to apologize to the owner and promise to get with the program and pull off what he wanted in the best of style. He, the customer is always right....right?? I figure that if Viessmann is willing to go this route, I will follow their lead. It's truly a lot to go through to adjust your controls over the internet. That said, we intend to do a helluva a job of it.

    I'll post photos when we get the K maticom installed.

    I understand that Viessmann may be discontinuing the Comfortrol and changing the VD control to some version of the Vitotronic 300.

  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Controls, et al

    > Of course, and it's how I would have preferred it

    > for sure. However the story gets a little

    > stranger. The 3 way mix valve that you see will

    > have an HK reset controller on it. Sadly, to my

    > mind, the Comfortrol control in the boiler will

    > not be doing much.

    >

    > The reason as I understand

    > it is that the custom K-maticom controls that wil

    > provide the internet interface contains a

    > Vitotronic 300 which apparently the control needs

    > to make the LON connection to the internet. The

    > Comfortrol on the boiler can't make that

    > connection so the substitute the HK control which

    > can. Confused yet?

    >

    > I gotta tell you I dragged

    > my feet on this big time. I guess I'm getting old

    > but I don't like multiple redundant controls and

    > components that I feel compromise a "mission

    > critical" application. Heating in Montana.

    >

    > To

    > accomodate the K maticom we are making this a lot

    > more complicated than it had to be. I dragged my

    > feet and complained until I felt that I had to

    > apologize to the owner and promise to get with

    > the program and pull off what he wanted in the

    > best of style. He, the customer is always

    > right....right?? I figure that if Viessmann is

    > willing to go this route, I will follow their

    > lead. It's truly a lot to go through to adjust

    > your controls over the internet. That said, we

    > intend to do a helluva a job of it.

    >

    > I'll post

    > photos when we get the K maticom installed.

    >

    > I

    > understand that Viessmann may be discontinuing

    > the Comfortrol and changing the VD control to

    > some version of the Vitotronic 300.





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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    Controls, et al

    I see...and agree on the "long way around" for LON interface. I've a client (who was CTO for InterNap) who wanted to interface with his Viessmann system and the home software program that he designed. The Vitotronic 200 still hasn't been connected. There needs to be a lower cost method to integrate a modem and interface.

    I've been hearing rumors of a revised control for the Vitodens. Once they sell the overstock of the HK-1's, you'll be able to directly connect (2) 3 ways to the system without having to use the HK-1 as the 2nd mixed temp device.

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  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    It's kinda a shame

    After I sold the owner on the great insulation package and a super effective radiant floor heating system, it's too bad that we had to complicate it as much as we are. The house is large enough that we still need the LLH but we could be driving the house directly off the burner control, as you suggest. Nice and simple.

    For all the tubing in the floor, the distributed manifolds allow a single set of 1 14/" lines entering the mech room. Look at the drawing and the manifold placement. Could you imagine what a mess it would be if we tried to home run everything to the mech room?

    Dale
  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    Finishing boiler room

    Andrew sent me these pic of the boiler room. Remember the Vitodens boiler is on the other side of the wall.

    Note the slab manifold is in the Caleffi cabinet in the wall. The Caleffi stuff is top notch.
    Dale
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