Messed up piping?

John Shea

I believe this system was equipped with a Direct Return Trap at one time and the replacement was a Hoffman condensate pump indicated in the photo.

More recently, a new boiler has been installed and I am curious as to whether (if even in only mid-cycle) a wet return has become a dry return. If so, could a FWL be the answer?

Maybe just repiping the drips?

Symptoms are:
1. Boiler flooding
2. No heat in parts of the home (some traps need to be replaced)

A rough proposal (doctored photo) of repiping the steam main and dry return drips is attached. Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

PS. I suppose removing the check in the wet return would be a good place to start as well?

gerry gill

you got it best as i can tell

from the pictures..the return trap was only needed for the coal boilers..today we have vaporstats..get that waste of money condensate pump out of there..you are 100% correct..revert the system back to gravity..worst case senario you may have to lower your wet returns..

John Shea

Thank you gerry...

Do you think another device might be needed to handle the condensate better than the proposed piping? or might that do it?

gerry gill

I think nothing beats gravity

but its hard to get an overview of the system from just one corner photo..whats that horizontal pipe under the words ''new water line'' in photo 2?

John Shea

Gravity

I believe that's a natural gas line. As far as a device, I was thinking in terms of a vent trap or F&T trap.

Boilerpro_3

Don't forget air Venting

And lots of it on the end of the returns and mains.This air used to go out of the condensate reciever, but with that gone you need to vent it.

Boilerpro

Steamhead

As long as

all the drips from the steam main and the dry return connect together below the boiler's waterline, there's no chance for steam to short-circuit into the dry return thru the drips. You should be fine with the 'doctored" diagram.

Measure the length and diameter of your steam mains, and tell us how much radiation is on the system. We can tell you what vents you need from this info.

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John Shea

E.D.R. has been measured.

I will measure the mains tomorrow and post both. Do you, also, think the existing piping is suspect?

I appreciate the help.

Steamhead

I think

you need to get rid of the pump and the drip traps. Needless complication.

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James Bates

Trane direct return trap

Have same problem here. water level overflows, especially with higher pressures (8-10 psi). check valves were clogged so we replaced them. problem still exists. Mr Holoman, is there a replacement available for this trap ?? local boiler "experts" have said that merely removing this device can cause problems.......the Trane No 2 trap is shown in attached photo (large black canister. could it be rebuilt?
tnx for help

Steamhead

8-10 pounds?!?

That's about 7.5-9.5 more pounds than your Trane Vapor system needs. If the pressure cutout is set that high, crank it down. If not, call a pro to find out why it's not working. This is a safety issue and you need to have it fixed NOW.

Tunstall can rebuild that return trap. With a Vaporstat, the return trap really isn't needed, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to have it as a backup.

If parts of the system don't heat well at these lower pressures, the problem is likely either bad traps on radiators or bad air vents on the mains. Either problem is easily fixed, and will save you a lot of money.

www.tunstall-inc.com

James Bates

trane No.2 Direct Return Trap

took the trap apart (see photos)and found the check mechanism stuck in the open position. freed it and cleaned unit including one radiator trap. have to test it now to verify proper operation.

Jim

Steamhead

Did you check

the pressure cutout? What did you find there?

James Bates

Trane No. 2 Direct Return Trap

James Bates

Trane No. 2 Direct Return Trap

Hi Steamhead,

if you look in one of the the previous message IMG 1279b.jpg

photo all the way at the top of the piping you can see a

light green and a brownish device. The green was a newly

replaced device. However I do not know what it is. It was

described to me as a "pressure" something or other device.

Is this what you are referring to as a "pressure cutout"?

there are two RUNS and each run has two of these devices

one each on the supply and return. The ones on the return

on each leg was changed to this "modern" green version.

Jim

James Bates

Trane No.2 Direct Return Trap

The Trane original boiler was removed and replaced with a Weil Mclaine. It has two 5 or 6 inch supply pipes out the top which have been teed into a single 4 inch

supply running down one side of basement. Another 4 inch run goes down the other side of the basement making two runs of 4 inch supply and 1 1/4 inch return.

The length of each run is aproximately 75 feet in basement PLUS at least two risers to the second floor where I would estimate two runs of 40 feet each.

Of course only the basement has the 4 inch feed runs. there are a total of 16 radiators (there were 17 but one had been removed). It is using a modern

oil fired burner pack for flame/fuel. The newly installed pressuretrol is set to bottom minimum and it stil generates 5 PSI. Is there a low pressure STEAM specific

pressuretrol control you could recomend that would provide a more usefull range of control in the .25 to 6 PSI range?

Also I do not know what you mean by "vent is on the dry (overhead) return". If you could describe the venting device I may be able to address that.

I can add some more photos also. Just did not wish to overburden the forum with so many :-)....

Thanks for the guidance.

James

Steamhead

The Plot Thickens

Those things on the piping- one green, many brown- are your main vents. The ones on the steam mains have the job of getting all the air out of the mains before it starts rising to the radiators- this process should only take a minute or so on a system like yours. The ones on the overhead return lines from the radiators ("dry" returns) take care of the air coming out of the radiators.

The brownish vents may be the original Trane units. The green ones are Hoffman #75 or 76. Either way, the ones on the steam mains are too small. The largest vent made today is the Gorton #2, and if your steam mains are 4-inch all the way from the boiler to the end, you'll need three of these big Gortons on each. But judging by the way I've seen most Trane Vapor systems installed, the steam mains usually get smaller along the way. Also, if you're measuring the outside diameter of old insulation, subtract 2-1/4 inches to allow for the wall thicknesses of the insulation and the pipe. Don't disturb the old insulation when measuring!

Once you confirm the pipe sizes as described above we can give you a more accurate answer. When the mains and returns are vented properly you will be able to distribute steam on no more pressure than you can produce with your lungs.

The pressure cutout has a differential adjustment inside. TURN OFF THE POWER, then remove the cover and turn this wheel down to 1. Replace the cover and the pressure will not rise that high before the burner stops- or if it does, have a pro come in to clean or replace the pigtail underneath. This type of control is not that accurate at the lower end, so if this is a problem, spend the money for a Vaporstat which cannot be set higher than 1 PSI.

I sure wish you were in Baltimore- we have a lot of these Trane systems around here and I love working on them!