Apprentic training on the job

Jack Ennis Martin

I had an interesting discussion with another tech.the other day and unfortunately it is one of my pet peeves. The person in question was generally running down the young people coming into the trade and how he hated to teach anyone. Well, wave the flag in front of the bull time,I told this person he was not fulfilling his responsiblities as a journeyman with this attitude to apprentice training. He came back with the most common rebuttal whenever this subject comes up and it is: Well, if I teach them anything in a couple of years they will take my job! I have to ask myself ,if in the thirty years you have spent in the business does not give you more knowledge than a youngster starting out ,you should not be in the business. My question is " What are your feelings on training young people on the job"? I think it is one of the most important things one can do with your life, education wieghs nothing:but, carries a tremendous amount of power.
Thanks Jack Ennis Martin

Paul Mitchell_2

His statemeent

is from ignorance. Some people feel that way or maybe he is just embarrassed, not everyone can teach.

J.C.A._3

I teach.

We've got a few apprentices in the shop that are going to school to be plumbers and trying to fulfill the obligations required in Ma. (tough but not impossible)

I am not a plumber but,I am a Thermal Environmental Control Technician.(Thank you Mr. Bean!)I need a helping hand every once in a while. Due to an unfortunate mistake, I needed an apprentice for about 4 months a while back and he learned so much about heating that he has decided to go for an oil license as soon as he gets his plumbing card. The most recent hire has also become interested in the heating field and has started taking steps for other courses while doing his plumbing school.

My thinking is....I've shown them another side of the business and one that is surely lacking in talent and understanding. They are usually intrigued by what I'm doing, and try to understand the reasons for it.They have shown a willingness to learn and I will try to do my best to keep it going.

I've been told I don't know how to use an apprentice appropiately. Maybe I don't, but I will never throw them to the wolves by themselves. If I think that they may have a problem, I'll be within shouting distance. I have and WILL always treat them like a "Part of the TEAM", because if they're treated right and learn the way to do things right, THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE!!!

Holding back is in very poor taste. If you're that worried about your job...... Chris

Mike T., Swampeast MO

A "teacher" like that will only create apathetic, disillusioned, frustrated, and unsatisfied students.

INTOLERABLE IN AN INDUSTRY THAT NEEDS ENTHUSIASM AND THE ABILITY TO ADAPT TO CHANGE!!!!!

J.C.A._3

BUMP!

This is too important to be sliding down. Chris

EBEBRATT-Ed

Someone that dosen't want to teach because he is afraid of losing his job is insecure and needs to get in another line of work. He is probably an "Iknow everything type"

I have a plumber friend who installs boilers but will not touch the oil part. He has told me "I don't have time to learn it and if I can't do it right I don't want to do it at all" He has an oil tech do his start-ups

You have to respect that

Ed

S Davis

Training

And every one wonders why we have such a shortage of good journeyman plumbing and heating installers, it's this very reason that alot of young people are turned off by the trades, the journeyman does not want to teach them anything and give them all the **** work, they get frustrated and leave the trades.

I know I almost did.

I feel like it is a journeymans responsibility to pass the trade on to the next generation, and if the apprentice takes his job then somthing is wrong with the journeyman because I dont know how a journeyman that has been in the trades long enough to be training an apprentice could possibly pass on all of the knoledge he or she has gained on to the apprentice making him more valuable, unless he or she stoped learning the day after their apprenticeship was over.
I better quit before I really get started on this subject as I ran into alot of these guy's when I was going through my apprenticeship!!

S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

Dave Yates (PAH)

Rodger that!

I feel like an apprentice most days myself. The more I learn, the more I know and then I know I know less than the day before. Everyone in our shop continues to learn each and every day. We have two apprentices at this time and we'll be hosting a high school student for several weeks of job shadowing over the next several weeks. I consider myself lucky to have employees who thirst for knowledge. Every day brings new challenges and fresh opportunities to explore new avenues.

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chuck shaw

I always try

to teach, to the best of my ability. Teaching shows your knowlage, failure to teach keeps the ignorance moving forward.

Chuck

Keith_8

Why not share

Hey way not share with those that care?

If you come across someone who wants to know how or why we do things a certain way isn't that better than working with a apprentice that never asks questions?

If you can't take the time to pass on some knowledge than shut up and keep working.

Keith

Jim Walls

Teaching

I have learned more from teaching, then I ever learned while learning,,,,, that is, except how to express what I just said :~},,,,,,,,,,,
I was once told ,,,,,"you spend the first 5 years in this business learning everything there is to know about it,,,,,,the next 5 telling everyone that you now everything about it,,,,,and if you are lucky enough to be around after those ten, realizing you do not know anything"

As Dave said (several previous posts) I learn something new everyday, which only proves to me "that there is an alarming increase in things we know nothing about"

Bill Nye_2

teaching

You have to have a passion for what you do, and if you really enjoy this trade you will want to share it.

If some one shows even remote interest, I will teach them anything I can. Life is funny, that kid you gave a hard time to just may be your boss someday, you never know.

Golden rule applies here, treat the apprentice how you would want to be treated if you were in his shoes.

I had a tech school intern for 3 months, this kid was a flake, he really drained me. I tried, he had no interest. He was there to please his parents, not because he wanted to. Now he makes pizzas and sweeps the floor for about minimum wage and he can hang with his buddies.

When we were kids we built go carts and tore apart lawn mowers and were outside dawn til dusk. Now kids stay in and play nintendo. I don't think single moms can help kids gain mechanical apptitude. Not because they can't, just because it all they can do to earn a living and keep a house.

College, every one has to go to college. 80-100 thousand dollars for a degree and maybe you can land a good job. Learn a trade and you can make a decent living and benefit society by offering a service and making people safe and comfortable.

There is no shame in doing what we do. Give me a kid willing to learn and I will do everything in my power to see he [or she] gets whatever they need to suceed. It is the least we could do. I am very grateful to all who took the time to help me along.

will smith_2

The guys out there that don't want to teach for fear of losing their job may also work for outfits that value youth and a strong back over age and strong skills. Like it or not, today's corporate America doesn't care if you're an excellent tech or installer with thirty years behind you-when you have a hard time hefting that ladder or start getting a sore back you'll get put on a list of the first to go when the opportunity arises. As a journeyman myself, I do believe in helping anyone with a desire to learn (don't all of us here?), but I also understand there is more to someone's fear of their future than ignorance. I've seen firsthand top-notch pipefitters with over thirty years pushed out by pencil pushing bean counters that thought the shop was too "top-heavy". Maybe the guy Jack mentioned has too-maybe a friend, who knows? Besides that, your knowledge is your intellectual property-no one can force you to hand it over for free if you don't want to. Heck, look at the fortune Microsoft has spent to protect it's intellectual property. As Dan has said-when you know it-you own it. What a person chooses to do with it is up to them.
Be hard on yourself.
Be easy on others.

Nick_13

Where were you all?

Where were all of you a few years ago? I started in the HVAC field about 2 1/2 years ago, and had two guys over me. One that had 2 months more than me, the other the Tech that knows it all, but wants you to run to the van and get....while he does. I got thrown to the wolves(after hours emergency calls on my own, service work, etc.) three weeks after being there.
Luckily, the company i work for offers some training so after being on my own for 6 months, I got to learn the basics(the basics I had to learn the hard way).
I can't complain, I am still alive(sometimes I wonder how), and every chance I get I use it to teach our 2 new guys(both of whom are older(alot older) than I am)). However I know what it was like to be thrown out there, and if there is one feeling I don't like it was being scared to go to work. I would never want that for one of my co-workers.
By the way, this is all from a 24 year old(young punk) who was raised by a single mom, and vegged out on video games all day(and still do when the pager isn't beeping or the wife wanting things done).

Bill Nye_2

Hey Nick

Good for you. I hope you did not take the single mom and the video game thing the wrong way. Sorry if I offeded you in any manner.

I was thinking of a general mindset and the only conclusion my peers and I can come up with to explain the lack of available candidates to fill the HVAC and Plumbing positions that will be left vacant when all the Geezers retire. Sorry dude, I wasn't attacking your character. You can play video games until you go blind and your fingers bleed, just show up ready to work. I will teach you anything you want to know, all I know [which isn't much] Once we think we know it all............. we no nothing.

Jimmy Gillies

Here in the UK.

There is a large shortage of good tradesmen. We have two apprentices that are very, very good. I have always said, be very, very tough on your apprentices and you will get good tradesmen. Don't make personal insults or remarks and always have a laugh with them, but push them to produce good work at speed. When you go to McDonalds or the Pub, the tradesman pays, remember we were all apprentices at one time on low pay.
These young people are the future and they are special.
Thanks for reading.
Jimmy Gillies (Scotland)

ScottMP

This subject is close to my heart

I feel Very Strongly that the root of our trades is teaching. It is what an apprenticship is all about.

Webster Dictionary: ap.pren'tice n. One who works under tutelage to learn a trade.

We are bound to teach those under our responsibility.

Dan gave me a phrase I live by. If I teach them, they may move on. If I don't teach them anything, they stay and work for me !

I and We, Need qualified Tradesman. Its what we all speak off : No New Help. Well Damn it, who's fault is it ??

I have just become President of a local Plumbers Association. My first night as President and we have initiated a plan to adopt a Trade School. We have started a committee to look into designing a program where we will evaluate a School and its needs, and then help provide them those tools to train. We can't do all schools, but we can adopt one school. Sort of like a Big Brother program. We have plans to "challange" another local group to do the same. Who knows this may be a program we can start nation wide.

Give an apprentice a tool and he'll work, teach him how the tool works and he'll show others ! ( sorry for the paraphrase ).

By the way Chris, keep doing what your doing. They are learning from the best.


Scott

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Bill Nye_2

Scott

Can you believe it? We made several attempts to adopt our local trade school, offered equipment and time and talent. The administration said, thanks but no thanks.

Wayco Wayne_2

Kids today

in general don't know how to work with thier hands. When I was growing up we were doing all sorts of things outside. I would spend Summers at my Uncles Dairy farm hauling bales and buckets of milk, not to mention shoveling manure. I think the farm experience as a major influence on me. When a piece of equipment would break my Uncle would climb down off the tractor and start figuring things out to fix it. Farmers know a little about a lot. Today everything is subbed out or disposable. I've been teaching in trade schools off and on for years now. I'm always amazed at how little they know intuitively to begin with. No one has "smart hands." I am always, however appreciated greatly. They want to learn. I think the subject of this thread, who doesn't like to teach, must not know much to begin with, and may be unwilling to face that fact by trying to explain what he does. WW

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Michal

myself being Young and in the trade

Well all of us who have posted on this site have been there in the trenches and have most likely stood up to the challeng, I to am young and in the Trade, but I became a engineer, I took HVAc in High school, My father worked as a plumber for Westchester County, so I got first hand father to son hand me down session, And Now he is gone And I have learned a great deal from him. That foundation early in life will keep me working till I die, whether I am a engineer or a Mechanic. And Fellas/ladies out there, I would pick up a wrench in a minute if I had to. I to this day go out and do side jobs, I love it, to me its fulfilling. I have been told oh what do you know in my own office, between engineers, even though I have a college degree in engineering. But when I came back with a binder of all the jobs I have done and showed it, the sterotype was there, It took me embarassing my department manager infront of the President to make him realize that the control he was looking at on a boiler in the Postal office was a stack relay, he had no clue, what it was, how it worked and how it was wired, well this is the guy who put me down, would not teach me and thought I was too inexperienced. After putting in a Buderus and a 5 tone Trane hydro air in my bosses house i got the recognition, my boss the president said, "Mike you do better work then some guys I know who are in the trade for years" and not to knock anyone, we are all good, but there are bad too to me those were the words that made me relect and enjoy the fruits of the trade. Guys, we are all in the trade, this is our Passion and profession, Technology has corrupted the minds of young people to say that technology is the way to go, Well its not, Enron is gone today, but the boilers and hvac systems within the building are still there. The point is There is enough work out there for all of us and we know at times that there is too much, lets not get greedy, ignorant or sensless, teach the young people as we were taught, look back, maybe its our fault why the quality has gone down, we need to keep the standards up, be old school, tough, strict, but funny and a mentor, we depend on it, our families and our clients
Take that new guy/girl, teach them, and teach them well like they were your own child

George_10

Every teacher worth their salt

will admit that they learn every day from their students. I wrote a magazine article about a world famous painter. He taught art at the local UC college. I asked why? His answer was I learn from my students.

I have taught many classes on the markets. The questions raised in class forced me to crystalize my knowledge in such away so I could explain the answer. I was forced to think! Answering a student or apprentice's questions makes clarity of thinking important. It also may cause one to rethink the problem and maybe come up with a better solution.

Geno_15

hope that wasn't us

please if your in CT look us up. Bill Nye, I'll take anything that's free, "well almost anything", we also look for factory reps to do seminars if it relates to our curriculum or we can fit it in.
Although I will say that other than having a company donate equipment I would never have a tech adress my class without knowing them. You have to be very careful what is said to your class so don't hold that against them.

Teaching, I love it. we do our best to make our students great techs and great apprentices, some of my students even listen to me!! hehhe

Mark Eatherton1

Wow... This subject is near and dear to my heart.

Its great to see all of the responses, positive AND negative. I've been studying this subject for over 61% my life, 32 years out of 52 years to be exact, and I have yet to come up with a solid answer because the target keeps changing.

But my research has proven this, there are more people retiring from the trades then there are people coming into the trades, and this is going to create a situation where we will have to pay more to entice people into the trade, and will obviously have to charge more to the end customer. I can see a day when a 5th year apprentice/technician will demand and receive base salaries of $90,000 per year.

Think not? It's already happening in the automotive industry, and guess who's paying for it, WE ARE.

As for training the apprentice, my personal observation echoes many of the ones from the good guys that hang here. Nurture your future. Thats what my father did with me and my brother. But it's not indicative of what I see going on in the field. I think that what goes around, comes around. In other words, if my lead guys were treated like crap, they think it's their job and obligation to treat their apprentices like crap. Their apprentices will eventually turn out and then when they get an apprentice, they continue to treat their apprentices like crap. I don't know when or where it started, but it needs to stop RIGHT NOW.

We interview our apprentices to see how their mentors are treating them, and if their not being treated well, we call their mentor on the carpet and let them know we're aware of the goings on. You HAVE to have control of this if your going to get and keep the finest.

That said, there is definately a serious problem with work ethics out in the field. Again, I don't know where or how the chain got broken, but I was raised to give it my all and very best until the job was finished. Todays kids give you 8 hours and that's it. Not eveyone, but most of them.

I think they're referred to as the "WHY" generation. Why should I work for you? What's in it for ME?

It's tough trying to teach a work ethic. It is supposed to be done at an early age when they are young and impressionable. I guess its a reflection on our society, and being soft on kids. They don't even have to know the answers to the questions any more, they just have to be close... (fuzzy math principles).

Work ethics can be taught at a later age, but in todays society, we MUST make a positive impression upon the student, we must reward them well for the tasks they are performing, we must not belittle them, we must strive to keep them learning, and we MUST keep them in our trades.

I've recently lost a good hands on mechanic to the automotive trades. He asked me how much his maximum salary would be working for me, I told him around $60K, he thought for about a millisecond and said "SEE YA!" He's now attendina diesel/automotive course and will turn out in 3 years with a degree in automotive technology that will allow him to hit the $90 K goal in a short period of time.

Raise your sights, raise your goals, raise your rates and raise your own help the right way.

I could go on, but I'll give it a break. Just one last question for everyone to ponder. What ever happened to "common sense"???

Have a great weekend.

ME

Unknown

Mark E and others

there is hope for the future. I just finished a class of 12 young men ages 19 to 26 years old. They really wiped me out with questions and the desire to learn. I had a ball with these young guys. One of them ex US Navy was really sharp and had a great attitude. You know you have a great bunch when they all call you sir, not that I am looking for that but respect goes a long way when wanting some old timer to stop and teach you something. The good thing is like I find with every class I do I learn something from my students. I am tired but really feel good about the week we had together.

A letter goes back with each student to their employer on what a fine student he was.

I really love this teaching young guys who want to learn.

Here is the tough thing for all the employers, everyone of those guys have plans to someday work for themselves. I for one do not think that is a bad thing. I would think an employer could be proud to point to young men in his community who once worked for him and have done well.

Mark Eatherton1

Tim...

I tell everyone of my students that shows up in my college courses that I'm basically "raising my own competition!"

All I ask in return is that they make sure they're aware of their cost of operation and that they recover those costs in the costs of doing business (over head).

Unfortunately, a few of them don't, but I don't expect them to survive for long in this economy.

Whenever I lose a bid to them (students who didn't listen)due to low balling, I always call the prospect back and tell them to hang on to my number for future service because the low ball bidder rarely is around when trouble raises its ugly head...

You can only teach the basics, and that doesn't include "common sense nor business sense". It would take a full 15 week course to teach business basics alone.

Se La Vi 8-)

ME

Jimmy Gillies

UK figures.

Details available here in the UK today show that 99.6% of Plumbing apprentices are men. I looked in the shaving mirror this morning and I could see the guy who was not doing it right by the fairer sex.
I'm ashamed to say I have never employed a female apprentice, have any of you guys?
Thanks for reading.
Jimmy Gillies (Scotland)

bill_51

women plumbers

there are a few here in mass floating around.........before blaming yourself you should ask yourself, did you never have a female apprentice due to the fact that you turned them away or is it because no female has ever bothered to grace your presence and walk through your doors to ask for a job. if it was the latter then it's not your fault, just shows you that women in your area don't want to do plumbing.

Jack Ennis Martin

Apprentice training

Thank you one and all ,who took the time ,to answer my question:the feedback was just what I was hoping for. The topic of woman in the trades came up and while this woman is not in the plumbing field per se, she is in the trades. She won the gold medal in our Local 254 of Manitoba for the highest marks for any apprentice in the HVACR Journeyman board examinations some years ago. I have heard nothing but good things about this persons technical expertise and how she represents the trade to the customer. After reading the attitude shown about apprentice training ;I am so glad to see it has changed from the time I was an apprentice some thirty odd years ago. The trade is certainly heading in the correct direction. Thank you for your thoughts on this matter -- and I am going to show this to a certain person I know who thinks training youngsters is a waste of time.
Jack Ennis Martin

Boiler Guy

Common Sense

was removed from the world's vocabulary with the invention of the computer. JMHO

Boiler Guy

Jack

The Journey person you refer to is an excellent technician and ambassador for our trade. She is one who I am fortunate enough to know as a personal friend.

J.C.A._3

I don't remember the name of their company,

but, ....I first remember seeing Richard Trethewy working with an all female company on a job from This Old House. I also have seen and met them at a couple of seminars and trade shows in our area.(I really am sorry I don't remember the names!)

Male, female, green or red.....it shouldn't matter. What we need is more people to fill the needed openings that we will all have in the future.

Failure to teach someone what you know and why you know it won't keep you in a job as much as it will let you be able to retire quietly.

I guess I'm looking at the long term, but I try to look truthfully.

TEACH,TEACH,TEACH....If you don't, you'll be working forever! (Just a bit of a stretch from my OTT tag line). Chris

Unknown

I have trained an all female

group of plumbers from a company called Pipeline Inc. I do not know if that is the same ones they are from Mass.

mental burner man.

\"On-Call\" Fees

I work for a large privately held oil co. on the canadian

east coast, at present the service techs are carrying

pagers for free! Is this normal? Any input would be greatly

appreciated.

KenMez

If they are using the pagers for the purpose of being on Stand-By while they are off the job, then YES the should receive some sort of compensation, if it is for keeping in touch with the techs while they are on the clock, then no, it is just another tool the company requires them to use. As far as apprentices go, I used to work for some of the biggest A-holes in the universe, "Go get me a bucket of steam, find me a left handed pipe wrench type guys", and I promised myself that whenever I got in a position to teach younger techs that I would never be like that, so I guess I did learn something from those jerks after all.

Mark Eatherton1

No

Kidding...

ME

Boiler Guy

Welcome

to the "real" world of 'supply and demand'. You WILL SUPPLY your services as WE DEMAND, based on OUR operational requirements. Afterall WE SUPPLY you with a vehicle and and a way to support your family, right!? It might not be correct, but that is the mind set of a lot of service contractors, unfortunately. Wonder why there is large staff turnover and low morale .... Hmmmmmm JMO

Geno_15

ah yes, the bucket of steam

my father used to teach too, one day he sent a student on a mission,{ the ones standing around with their hands in their pockets usually got these missions, pipe stretchers, etc..}, the mission today was the bucket of steam, go down to the heating lab and get a bucket of steam, low and behold he returned 20 minutes later with A BUCKET OF STEAM!

what he did was get some dry ice and put it in a bucket to goof on my fathers head!

Dale

Couple of things

As to Women in the trades, stange how they were able to make all needed war materials in WW2, as to training, IMHO one of the most important things to remember is a new hire is a large investment and giving that person to a poor trainer/leader or mean crew is a good way to waste money. We all know learning on the job is critical to success, picking the right person to train the new hires is critical to good OJT training. Planning OJT is important and hard to do but must be done. My company has a list of OJT tasks and we ask the new hire to keep a list of times experienced and a supervisor to periodically check the list. Like everything else, if you don't measure it you can't manage it. Measure also means the owner or bigger boss needs to TALK to and LIsten to the new hires to show interest in the new large investment.

J.C.A._3

Geno,

I bet that guy is working for himself at this point and making a good buck teaching his employees just what he showed your Pop!

Everyone deserves a chance and will get it with me. All I need to see is the desire to learn and I will teach. The snotty kid who thinks he knows it all is a complete turn off of the teaching machine. When a genuine interest is shown by anyone, I will give anything I have to get them attracted to our fine field.

For some, teaching is a struggle, but my guess is that anyone who tunes into this site is pretty much immersed in their field/job by now and more than able to spread the wealth . I believe it's called "paying it forward" and I'm a FIRM believer. Chris