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brand preferences for indirect water heater

Just wondering if I am missing any cost effective alternatives for indirect water heaters? After numberous coil and tank failures with the Amtrol model as well as the quickly escalating price, no doubt related to the market but also to the cost of warrantying virtually every unit they sold, I switch to the Weil McLain plus 40 for household installations. Last one I bought was around $550 I think. For the life of me, I can't figure out what these things don't cost about the same as a gas hot water heater. Must be a size of the market deal or something. If they sold as many indirects as GHW heaters then the price would come down but they can't sell that many because the price is so high.

Somebody just needs to take the risk of being the walmarts of this commodity, albeit that may have been how Amtrol tried to position themselves originally and they had a poor implementation that didn't anticipate the level of corrosive damage they would experience even though the heating was indirect. So now they've gone away with their tail between their legs and I'm wondering if there is any unit of interest in the 300-400 range instead of the 500-600 range.

I could justify more installations if I could get the price down to $350 or 400 even, and gas fired heaters which used to cost me less than $150 dollars even less thant $120 jumped with some new safety crap or something a few years back much closer to $200.

Thanks
Brian

Comments

  • Robert O'Connor_7
    Robert O'Connor_7 Member Posts: 688
    Brian..

    If you can buy a new 40 gallon water heater for under $200 than I want your suppliers number.

    For indirect, I like the WM+

    Robert O'Connor/NJ
  • Al Gregory
    Al Gregory Member Posts: 260


    I have good luck with Super Store
  • jalcoplumb_2
    jalcoplumb_2 Member Posts: 172
    Indirect price vs gas WH

    The increase in gas water heater price has closed the gap a lot. Water heaters in my area have gone up 20%. The indirect I use only went up 5%. Getting closer. I use the Super-Stor from HTP with a Munckin.
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    Hey

    I'll but gas hot water heaters from you, at that price.

    Everyday replacement --- Super-Stor from HTP

    Buderus Boiler --- Buderus Indirect

    Top of the line --- Viessmann

    Scott

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  • Ranger
    Ranger Member Posts: 210
    I think I have....

    ...installed at least one of all the American assembled
    ones.I have had good luck (as far as I know anyway)with all.
    I have put in a few Crown glass lined indirects (I think thay are actually made by A.O.Smith) Thay are about $150-250
    less than the Mega-Stor's but obviously do not have the lifetime guarantee.Thay are called Maxi-Therm's Models:MT040G/50G/79G & MT100G.,for those "cost competitive"
    jobs.(There's one also I put in at one of my brother and sister-in-laws)
    Ranger
  • B. Tice
    B. Tice Member Posts: 206
    indiects

    You know, it's funny, but I've put in many Amtrols for 20 years and never had a problem. I will say I see many Triangle tube products at wholesalers for warranty. I have also had good luck w/ Superstor,(not available locally anymore) and what I think is the best one, Ergomax.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    I'm pleased with

    the Triangle Tube Phase 3, AKA Weil-McLain, AKA Aquatherm.

    The tank in tank design provides a small buffer volume, at least more than a coil HX. And you can jam a lot of BTU's through a tank in tank design compared to a small wound coil HX.

    I agree the glass lined steel indirect are a good, less expensive, option. I used to use the Vailant brand which had a huge side clean out port and smooth coil HX that didn't plug up.

    I'll bet they, glass lined steel, with proper anode protection maintenance, outlive the stainless versions in some water conditions, mainly high chloride level (softened possibly) water.

    hot rod

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  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    This tank makes a lot of sense

    The Rheem Solaraide has the copper tube HX wrapped around the outside of the tank. Maybe a small performance hit, and a bit of a pressure drop through a 5/8" coil, but efficiency from a limed coil (very common) should not be a factor.

    Like to see Rheem make a fired version of this to replace failed CombiCors :)

    I was pleased to see Rheem/ Rudd had their solar products on display at the National Home Builders Show recently.

    hot rod

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  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
    A lot of guys.....

    have mentioned Superstor...There are 2 model lines. The Contender is the glasslined steel /w/ steel coil competitive line and rthen there is the Ultra. Stainless tank w/ cupronickel coil. The Contender is VERY competitive and I think the best value out there. Are the better tanks sure but the cost goes up a lot.
    -My vote for the best..Crown Mgastor/Burnham Aliance.kpc

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  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718


    What Scott said but I'll added the W/M plus to go with the superstor for economy jobs.

    PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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  • Joe Moody
    Joe Moody Member Posts: 22


    The funny thing is nobody is talking about how well each model works compared to one another. Unfortunetly we talk price instead of price compared to production. Some brands 30 gallon models make more hot water than other brands 50 gallon models.
  • EJW
    EJW Member Posts: 321
    Indirect Heaters

    I like the stone lined Vaughn Top Performer. EJW
  • Ray M_4
    Ray M_4 Member Posts: 1
    indirects

    I like the Mega-Stor by Crown. Had WM leakers and of course the amtrol leakers.
  • Al Gregory
    Al Gregory Member Posts: 260


    How many indirects do u sell a year? I must be in a low income county. I cant say I sell two a year. 99% of the houses I see have a tankless coil or either gas or electric water heaters
  • Lou Miller
    Lou Miller Member Posts: 51
    Mega-Stor

    I'm not a pro like most of you guys, nor do I know what they actually cost. I got mine as part of the overall contract and didn't bother to ask what the unit itself cost. I've got a 53 gallon MS and so far I think the thing is incredible. I have it set at 130 and it rarely causes the bolier to kick on. I'd bu it again in a hearbeat and I'll never go back to a regular DHW.
  • Lou Miller
    Lou Miller Member Posts: 51
    They should be an easy sell...

    I say this from a consumer's perspective. I'm not exactly the type of person to bite the bullet on big ticket items either. I looked up all the stats online and compared the difference between regular electric units (no gas available here) and the indirects. It was a no brainer for me, I just asked who do I make the check out to? Crown has some literature that you can get to show your customers that is really convincing. I'm sure the other man. have basically the same thing. I made my decision long before seeing their literature though. I think that what really sold me was that over the long haul, the Mega-stor is going to be a far greater value. It was easily worth the extra up front dollars. Push them on your customers. They, and you, will be glad you did. I've already talked 3 other people into getting one after having mine installed.
  • Dave Stroman
    Dave Stroman Member Posts: 766


    In this part of the country SuperStore is popular. Denver requires double wall HX. Not many tanks available with these. SuperStore, Bradford White, maybe Amtrol. In areas where double wall is not required, I like Buderus or Bock.

    Dave in Denver

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • Phil_6
    Phil_6 Member Posts: 210
    Burnham

    we use the Alliance pretty much exclusively. Never had a leaker. That's good enough for me.
  • Ranger
    Ranger Member Posts: 210
    Glass lined....

    ...Hot Rod,I'm glad you brought up water conditions.In addition to budget,water quality was my main concern w/the install at my brother/sister-in laws.(thay indeed have well
    water and softener)I personally have had my own indirect fail in my last house but as I had posted previously,I replaced it hassle free,other than the failure part.(It was a Phase III)I think water quality (In my opinion) plays a much larger role in indirect heater failure than many suspect.
  • archibald tuttle
    archibald tuttle Member Posts: 1,094
    a marathon post on water heater costs

    Thanks for all the perceptive responses and sharing of personal experience in purchasing and installing various indirect options. I may be covering old territory here in whining about high costs of indirects so I'm sorry if I am redundant, too libertarinan or this cyber bloviating violates any politeness rules for heating help of which I'm unaware. Above all, please ignore if it gets boring.

    Brian

    Allright, so I was quoting last years prices and as a property manager I go through less units than somebody who does strictly plumbing and heating and I never thought of hot water heaters as a commodity whose price had to monitored as closely as pork bellies.

    The supplier who sold me a 40 gallon for $180 dollars last year now wants $380 for a Rheem (that is getting to be a double entendre, no offense to their particular brand intended).

    Graingers has Vanguards for $328 (which I think is just another Rheem Brand name anyway but not sure) (and they get just as much for electrics. That is crazy. I don't think they needed newly designed gas saftey valves on electric heaters but it is a government mandate so you never know).

    Lowe's has Whirlpools for $258. I have actually found Lowe's to be the best source for replacement applicances although I do most of my business with local supply houses I will gladly buy my hot water heaters from Lowes unless I see a raft of complaints regarding the Whirlpools. I understand that there have been a bunch of mandates that have screwed this market up during a type of high inflation/high demand in building materials in general, but I will support any market institution that is holding the line against astronomical construction inflation.

    Pasted a cogent and informed explanation of some of the causes for this rapid run up in hot water heater costs below. Discussion of these varying factors no doubt lurks in the archives of 'heatinghelp' but just because I happened to come across it ,I included below. I guess those manufacturers quick to market to meet these new standards have been able to charge a premium and will continue to do so until more competition emerges.

    I can't see any way that when I was buying hot water heaters for less than a $150 in 2003 that an increase in steel and a couple of mandates can have increased actual production costs, but the availability of models meeting the standard coupled with increased housing starts presumably is helping the margins of these manufacturers.

    Bully for them, but I'd of course prefer to be treated to energy (and safety improvements for that matter) as a market force rather than a government force. To get slightly (all right mostly) political and without disaggregating the idea of forced savings implicit in theoretically lower energy bills associated with 5% improvement in efficiency from cost benefit calculations animating the risk that supposedly compelled safety changes:

    If the energy improvement over the former models is 5% as mandated than the savings, given average annual operating cost on the current Rheem 40 gallon of $220, estimates are about $11 a year savings (I didn't see what gas price they were using, $ could be more in this area given that the irrational hatred of industrial coalburning without regard to the technology employed has allowed the regulatory process to be skewed to drive industrial users away from coal towards natural gas and helped run up our natural gas costs so that homeowners are buying coal stoves, another wonderful move brought to you courtesy of the government that knows best -- the actual savings could be a little more around here).

    Even if one only attributed half the increase in cost to the energy mandate, by the time you figure the opportunity cost of money there is little gain to sell the customer if one were offering this as a choice. Even at the Lowe's price which is $100 more than I was paying in 2003, take half of that or an increase of $50 attributed to efficiency discounted for future value would wipe out those $11 per month savings assuming an appliance life of about a decade it is probably a wash.

    As far as safety, maybe somebody can convince me that the latest mandates are a good idea, but I haven't read of anybody being whacked by a hot water heater explosion lately. This stinks to me of that kind of naderite no cost is too great government meddling like they did with propane tanks. How many incidents have you every heard of where overfilling individual tanks resulted in some kind of accident. On top of that, it wasn't enough just to require overfill prevention devices, they obsoleted tanks that didn't have them even when they were still in date from their original manufacture. I've got a pile of them in my yard as a monument to this wonderful gift from government.

    Actually, as I recall the development of many important safety improvements early in the era of automated heating technologies was the result of insurance companies settling on a least risky technology that they endorsed , ergo the Hartford Loop. But I digress.

    All the discussion indicates that theoretically although there haven't been extensive studies or documentations, indirects could acheive more significant savings, but their price is between double and triple that of the current cost of a regular gas hot water heater. Maybe compared to electric this looks good, but just a regular gas hot water heater looks good compared to electric.

    I have to admit as much as I like the indirects for various uses and as add-ons to high efficiency condensing boilers that I experience probably better than a decade of maintenance free service from most present traditional DHW gas hot water heaters (and expect a century of service from the copper tank Ruuds I still have running in a couple houses). And if there is a boiler problem at least the tenants usually still have hot water so you're not quite as far behind the 8-ball. All of this seems to explain the commentor who says he doesn't see demand for a couple indirects in a busy year.

    During the same time that my local wholesaler's price for a 40 gallon gas went from $150 to $380, the indirects skyrocketed as well. I priced a WM plus 40 which I had been carrying in my head as $550 and it is currently $700 so I was out of date there as well although that is a more recent increase as I bought a plus 40 for less than $600 about 6 months ago. Concededly this is not as much of an increase as a percentage of cost. That the price increase is close in absolute dollars rather than percentage to the increase in DHW heaters suggests that this is as much related to the perceived market value of these heaters compared to traditional ones and their niche position. So if traditional heaters cost more you just charge more for these as a matter of course. Yes there is a bit of stainless in these but no gas saftey valves and they are already highly efficient. The exclusivity of these technologies seems to impell their cost just as it has always kept some radiant floor technolgies expensive. Lowes and Graingers don't even list indirects so there appears to be little mass marketing of these options.

    Best price I could find quickly on a 'Contender' was $594 so that's only a 15% savings. If it were a lot less I could see going this way since people have leaking problems even with the more corrision resistant models for various not fully explained reasons, e.g. Murphy, quality control, design flaw, I don't know, but 15% doesn't seem to be a motivator to get back into glass lined steel.

    If I could only figure a way to get a heat exchanging coil into a Rheem Marathon hot water heater then I'd have something. A completely plastic unit with electric back up. Have to talk to them about that. The marathon is an expensive niche style heater anyway at $656 current quote for a 40 gallon. If they would just add a coil they would really have something competitive even though I would like it to cost a couple hundred dollars less the back-up feature would be handy. To fight corrosion buildup on the coil, how about just running a couplehundred feet of 3/8 inch heatpext through the damn thing.

    For that matter, how about running a couple hundred feet of pex in a plastic 55 gallon drum and put the drum in the low pressure boiler circuit and run the domestic or other higher pressure load through the pex. and then get a dozen cans of spray foam and make some kind of enclosure and the rest is history. Certainly thinking of trying this for a couple of heat exchange arranagements at the farm where I don't require Underwriter's Lab certification.

    Ah well, I'll just keep dreaming or start a hot water heater company. Thanks again for the thoughtful participation and attention this board pays to questions. I have seldom seen online discussions of such utility. Guess as a fan of the market I'm just going to avoid any hot water replacements I can possibly avoid until a little more competitive environment emerges following these recent changes and the go-go housing market which has kept demand up and if any replacements can't be avoided for the time being I'll get a Whirlpool from Lowes.

    Brian

    ___________

    from Plumbing and Mechanical Magazine online in April of 2003:

    Prices Going Up
    Water heater prices are on their way to becoming a little less absurd. You've probably already noticed significant increases in the past year owing to a surge in steel prices. Expect more big jumps after July 1, when the mandate kicks in for flammable vapor ignition resistance on all new 30- to 50-gal. atmospheric water heaters.

    The manufacturers also will pass on stiff increases in the cost of foam insulation due to changes mandated by the Montreal Protocol. Then next Jan. 20, they must comply with new DOE requirements to boost efficiency in gas-fired units by 10 percent and in electric water heaters by 5 percent. These are a lot of big changes to throw at an industry in a short period of time, and the manufacturers are bracing for some sticker shock by trade and consumer customers.

    Yet, astute contractors ought to see this more as an opportunity than a problem. More expensive water heaters give you a chance to make more money. It's simple arithmetic. Just keep your normal percentage markups on the higher priced units and it will mean more dollars in your pockets. Don't sacrifice your margins to increases that will impact everyone and over which you have no control.

    The message you need to spread to your customers is that even if water heater prices were to double or triple, they would still be one of the biggest bargains around. Tell them what people paid in Edwin Ruud's time and how much that would be worth today. Tell them how priceless is the safety factor when water heaters get supplied and installed by trained and licensed plumbers. Tell them to compare the water heater's price with that of a new sofa. Then ask which they would sooner live without.

  • freyheating265342
    freyheating265342 Member Posts: 14
    Indirect water heaters

    We use the Vaughn Top Preformer. It has a two year labor,ten year tank or coil replacement warranty,..Hydrastone lining which is impervious to adverse water conditions and is compeditively priced........www.vaughncorp.com
  • freyheating265342
    freyheating265342 Member Posts: 14
    Indirect water heaters

    We use the Vaughn Top Preformer. It has a two year labor,ten year tank or coil replacement warranty,..Hydrastone lining which is impervious to adverse water conditions and is compeditively priced........www.vaughncorp.com
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,883
    I have only had problems

    with brands of tanks, Vaughn and Amtrol.

    The Vaughn tanks seems to have too small a coil that is too tighly coiled. I have found preformance issue's with the tanks. The newer are better nut the old tank were poor performers.

    Scott

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  • Michal
    Michal Member Posts: 213
    performance

    currently I am designing a school for a local school district of about 150,000 sf and I went with two buderuses 1000's the recovery rates of them are just phenomenal. we speak about price, but not quality, warranty, recovery and of course the comfort they give us. I have installed many Amtrols and never had a peoblem, started installing the buderuses and seemed to get a few leaky threads, but i think that was from the difference in the threading being its german. anyway, it all comes down to warranty, and quality, i can get a amtrol wh-7p package with pump for 600 dollars while the equivalent in buderus the st-150 is like 800 to 1000 range. but its the quality and performance, I have found personally the Buderus to be really on top of its game. Like some one here mentioned warranty and personal preference is what it comes down to as well as price, they are all good, we spec all of them, but its the installers, who really pick and chose not I
  • Ranger
    Ranger Member Posts: 210
    Brian...

    ...not to be sarcastic my brother,but you are aware of the over 110% increase in raw materials alone in the past 12 months we here are all secretly sweating? (not to mention all the other points you mentioned) Now I understand in your position cost is a factor.But you still get what you pay for.
  • Scott Kneeland
    Scott Kneeland Member Posts: 158


    i've had the best luck with the crown mega-stor. been using them for about 8 years no problems or leakers.

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