Setpoint with Diffrental Boiler Controler Recommendation NJ

Weezbo

please do your self a Huge favor and click on find a professional .

Gary Mangino

Setpoint Boiler / Radiant Controller Recomendation Requested NJ

I have a very complex 17 zones radiant heat home (9K sq ft) in central NJ. All radiant was installed with Wirsbo Quick Track system. Boilers are twin Weil Mclain GV Boilers ( 1st mistake). Currently primary loop supplies 3 indirect WMc plus 80 DHW tanks ( second mistake) and 2 injection based secondary loops that supply all 17 zones / rooms individually ( yes 17 thermostats). To date the system has been a gas consumption catastrophy! . I think the problem lies in the complex fashion that the boilers have been controled - first by a WMc BCP6 ( 3rd mistake) and now by a Wirsbo 612 controller ( maybe 4th mistake).
To cut to the chase my thoughts are that the bolier control logic should simply be rather dumb. Fire boiler number one and bring the primary loop up to 185 than shut down and do not refire unitl 155. Of couse the controller would need to determine when it needed two boilers vs one based on rate of temp rise and would need to lead lag / rotate them as well for even wear. Currently the 612 controler forces the boiler target temp to change with outdoor temp and the result is very short off times based on demand of injection system. Also would think that 30 degree differental on setpoint would allow boiler belly water to recirc so that ambient heat is applied to loop. The injection system (wirsbo 212) does provide it's own outdoor temp reset that affords secondary loop temp change based on outdoor conditions. Max temp 2nd loop 150 degrees.
Any logic to this stragety ???? Thousands of dollars in gas bills later any suggestions would be appreiaciated.

Ken_8

First mistake...

The equipment is fine. The installation is suspect. The GV boilers had a recall. The internal bypass 'stats are failing at an alarmning rate and the OEM is history. The "fix" is BS.

Assuming the basic calculations (heat load and controls strategy designs) are okay, where's the heat going? This is NOT black magic and witchcraft. The boilers will deliver ~ 85% even if the 'stats ARE blown. Is the house overheating? If not, the cost of gas has risen as much or more than fuel oil. Don't shoot the messenger.

More data please. I'm in Rahway, NJ How far are you?

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Gary Mangino

have had more professionals than you could imagine

After the installation ( or should I call it abortion ) of the W Mc controls and piping I had 10 to 15 differant industry professionals out before W Mc wrote a big check to get it fixed. Currently have two very versed professionals one Industry tech rep & another local well versesed radiant guru. Still no success. Would like to find setpoint controller to suggest to them as outlined , any reccomendations?

eleft_4

Set point

It sounds like the a low mass situation. I don't know any thing about the wirsbo control.
The 3 indirects could serve as one large buffer, open the flochecks or Z/V's. Don't out door reset the boilers use a fixed set point above 160* 10 * differential. Get a control to outdoor reset the veriable speed. Tekmar 361, 365 ??.

The domestic temperature should be set with the anti scald mixing valve.

JMO

al

Gary Mangino

W Mc GV recall

Ken
I am at exit 8 NJTPK Millstone NJ . Are you a WMc repair person. I have two additional issues with boiler ignite that are intermintant type. On my GV5 the boiler will not light on first try. It runs through evacuation / purge than when no flame shuts down and retrys 10 secs later and will normally light than . On my GV6 it sometime will not start the cycle. There is a call for heat, than the circ light is on, than the limit light on and stays lit , than nothing eles. No presure sw light, no evacuation, no flame just hangs there. Does any of this sound like the recall stuff. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I think the calcs are OK , done by wirsbo at corporate before construction, house seems warm for most part, but I think that the constant on and off is killing the consumption not to mention my boilers.

Weezbo

man i can feel where your comming from...

this is what kick us right in the slats as they say in England...the thing is you deserve better than that....here is my suggestion....get one of these pro fessionals to make the thing work without the sophisticated level of controls first ...if that is impossible for them thank them for thier time and show them the door.

Gary Mangino

Low Mass ????

Can you explain Low Mass ? I have become pretty knowledgable about this stuff for a lai person however would like to understand Low Mass.

Weezbo

seriously a year and a half ago we mentioned the same

thing up comes the tech rep ....balh bla blah i know how to make it go. thats no the point. they need to supply you with the part i suggested and soon. i am not very impressed with that whole act..at all.

Gary Mangino

understand the tech rep blah blah blah stuff , heard a lot of that but unsure of the balance of your message. Thanks for your help & reply

Gary Mangino

Low Mass I think I get it

Is what you are suggesting is that the water in the coils of all three DHW systems should become part of the primary loop water system? I expressed a concern early on that the GV boilers have two circulator pumps built in and would not allow the belly of the boiler to be part of the primary loop. Therfore ony water in 15 - 20 ft of 2" copper made up primary loop when boilers are off. Only a limmitted number of BTU's can be help in such a small amount of water. The result is boiler satisfied, shuts down internal circs, primary loop below target temp in 1 min and boiler recalled. If 3 dhw tanks were continually circulatiing than all the water in coil could hold btu's amd the system would stay off longer and use less gas. Do I have the concept? And is this what you ment by low mass?

eleft_4

Yes

hr

17 zones is a classic example

of a potential multi zoned, micro loaded system.

Consider there are times when only several, or even one zone is calling for heat. As such that boiler only has one BTU output. The boiler quickly heats up and shuts down. It repeats this short cycling until the zone (s) satisfy.

Maybe water under the bridge at this point but the Weil Ultra modulating boiler might have been a better match for that type of system. Would they swap?

Generally a properly installed two stage boiler control would watch and learn the boiler cycling and adjust the delta t to lessen the short cycling. I use the tekmar brand and they also data log feature to tell you run times, and help narrow in on a fix.

Could be some piping issues also. The boilers need to be tied into the primary loop correctly, and with check protection to prevent flow through the unfired boiler when the other is running. A sketch of the piping would help us see this.

Another common fix is to add a buffer tank off the primary loop. This allows the boiler to have a longer burner on time to lessen the short cycles.

There is a fix for your system, hundreds just like your behave well.

hot rod

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Weezbo

precisely.

Jay_14

Interaction between 212 and 612 control

Hello,

A small setting conflict could be causing some of your problems. The 212 and the 612 controls each have a boiler minimum setting. The 212 boiler sensor is located on the return water pipe and allows the 212 to reduce the rate of mixing in order to provide boiler protection. The 612 on the other hand has a boiler supply sensor in order to stage the two boilers. Typical heating designs have a temperature difference of 20F between the supply and return pipes. Now imagine if the boiler minimum setting is set to the same temperature on both the 212 and the 612 (Catch 22 scenario). This can result in short cycling of the boilers and increases fuel consumption.

To fix this issue is rather easy. Set the boiler minimum temperature on the 212 control 20F below that of the 612 boiler minimum setting. Make sure that the 212 boiler minimum is above the boiler manufacturer's recommendated minimum, otherwise you may void your boiler warranty. For example, if the boiler's recommended min is 130F, then set the 212 boiler min setting to 130F and set the 612 boiler min setting to 150F.

This may not solve all your heating problems, but is a step in the right direction.

Jay

Bob Morrison_3

How much energy has the house consumed?

Gary,

Can you say what the design heat loss for the home was estimated at? Also, how long has be the system been in service and how much fuel have it consumed?

Bob

Gary Mangino

heat loss

Bob
Heat loss for the house was calculated at 99,332 btu's based on a very detailed calc that used 10 degree design temp day , .35 air infultration , and a 65 degree at ceiling room temp (keep in mind radiant so 65 at 10 ft cieling is 70 at shoulders) . Fuel use last two months

period, gas $ amount, avg temp 2003, 2004, consump 03, 04

11/24/04 - 12/28/04, $840.55, 37, 37degrees,713ccf, 719ccf

12/28/04 - 1/27/05,$817.27, 26, 32 degrees, 740ccf, 701ccf

Any and all thoughts welcome

Bob Morrison_3

More questions and remarks

Gary,

I'm trying to discern if the fuel consumption is excessive for your house. (I know that it's higher than you'd like, but is it excessive?) Is the home new or unconventionally well insulated? Can you provide more details, i.e., R values for surfaces, etc. Any forced ventilation? Are you insulated below the Quicktrak? What temperatures are maintained?

The heat load rate (~100 MBH) would be low for a conventional home of 9000 SF. Many large homes that I'm familiar with would easily consume 750 CCF in a winter month. Why would yours be different?

In any case, your best strategy will be an aggressive reset of zone temperatures as well as controls sequencing. I agree with Ken that the even if the boilers are not operating optimally, their efficiency is unlikely to be very poor.

Bob

hydronicsmike

Hot Rod

"Author: hot rod
Subject: 17 zones is a classic example



of a potential multi zoned, micro loaded system.

Consider there are times when only several, or even one zone is calling for heat. As such that boiler only has one BTU output. The boiler quickly heats up and shuts down. It repeats this short cycling until the zone (s) satisfy. "

I like that comment. You are going to love tN4!!


Mike

hydronicsmike

Well said Jay V.-:) !!

Sometimes I wonder why people like this fine Gentleman don't call Wirsbo or tekmar about this??????

Mike

Gary Mangino

wirsbo involvement

Been There ... Done That . I have Wirsbo involved along with radiant local contractor who seems to know his stuff . This however is stumping them all, that was the reason for the post. Any input on the original thread of a reccomendation of a specific dual boiler controller that would allow user defined set point high temp, user defined low temp refire. lead lag rotation, and a little logic that would learn when to fire two vs one boiler based on temp rise.

Gary Mangino

house specs

Bob
Fuel might not be excessive however look at average temp for the months. If I look back at last year with teen temps I had $1200 + dollar gas bills.
House is two years old, top notch everything, r19 everywhere even under floors , basement ceiling fully insulated, 1st floor cieling fully insulated, attic r21, awesome windows & doors, no forced HVAC air all 100% quick track radiant,air exchange via HRV units that recapture heat as it exhaust stale air, bath fans on occupancy sensors off 3 min after exit, low r value floor coverings, room temp set 70 degrees , four rooms set at 55 because not used, down to only useing 1 of the 3 indirect fired Dhw WMc plus 80 tanks, no concrete radiant active ,
Yes 100,000 btu's is low but that was the reason for Quick Track radiant. 30% reduction to average heat demand & added comfort. I think my problem lies in low boiler mass combined with the need for a relativly dumb boiler controler.
Thanks for your input - your responce is well appreaicated

hydronicsmike

Well...

...if 2 Boilers, DHW, Setpoint and Two Injection Mixing then one tekmar 374 could get the job done without potential setting interference as described very nicely by Jay.

However, what Jay explained seems to be a very realistic cause for the higher fuel consumption you are experiencing. The Controls you have, should get (almost) the same job done as the 374.

If you like, call me and I'll walk you through the setup of those Controls and make sure that part is covered. Then we could look at other things. It is a process of elimination and after we went through the settings, one step is done.

250-545-7749, Ext. 214.

Regards,


Mike

Ken_8

Yeah. Sort of...

For about six years we were the north Jersey service and troubleshooting reps doing startups on all W/M boilers in the area. I'm at exit 135, GSP (Rahway, NJ) We have a few clients in Montgomery, Belle Meade and on River Road, Pennington, etc.

We went with Dan to the factory in Michigan City and schmoozed with all the muckity mucks. I made a few friends and we could chat. (732)388-1794 We might be able to help over the phone.

Worth a try.

Ken

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jalcoplumb_2

I drive by your exit

every day. Give me a call. Cell phone is 609.304.9749. I can help you fix your problem.

Jospeh A Landree
J.A.L. Co. Plumbing & Heating
Allentown, NJ

archibald tuttle

walk me through short cycling vis a vis heat loss

I can understand short cycling as an undesirable condition for longevity of various boiler systems but as an earlier post suggested, this isn't witchcraft (of course maybe they were wrong). Forgetting the question of whether these WM boilers are running at their optimum efficiency, assuming correct operation of these or other high efficiency condensing boilers is there some stack loss or other phenomenon associated with short cycling.

Assuming that for some reason, whether the cycles are short or not that the system is 'overrunning' in a sense of putting more BTU's out than are necessary to heat the home to the desired temperature where are they going if they aren't going up the stack (probably should say out the stack these days since many go sideways).

Or is this a question of transmission losses in the area of the primary loop assuming that the indirect tanks and injection systems are maintaining floor temperatures that yield the design living space temps. In other words might he be heating the basement or crawl space or something more than desired? And earlier question which maybe I missed the answer is are you living spaces exceeding design temperatures? 70 at shoulder height??

Finally, I would have to concur that while short cycling might be a nuisance and for what you no doubt spent for such a system you should be able to get a sense that it is working optimally but I could only wish that I could bring in gas bills in the range of $100 per 1000 square feet in aging housing stock around here. Obviously you have better insulation and system designed for efficiency but I would say that is not outrageous number and that 100,000 btu sounds low strictly speaking from the seat of my pants. Obviously I don’t see design of your perimeter space or openings and R values and so forth. If you want to pursue this to it’s logical conclusion you could thermal image the house to see if insulation and seals are performing up to specs as well.

Brian

Weezbo

So, did you decide to use a buffer tank?

and change the sequence of control hierarcial commands and get them to look at the temp of the stack switch ....? because as you know professionals like the learning curve ...just not on thier dime. so if any of our suggestions were followed and work we would like to hear about it.

Mad Dog

Well, Gary, you haven't had the best heating Man on Long Island

out their yet. Jimmy Burke, of The Comfort Zone has no peers. He has gotten me out of more piping and wiring jams than I care to admit. He WILL figure it out, but he is not cheap. Let me know if you need his number. Mad Dog

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S. Orbine

Gary,

Don't overlook insulation, (or ducts, if you have them)!

I have a new (1 year) 4600 SF home in NJ. Two Burnham high efficiency boilers, indirect DHW, Tekmar boiler control, outdoor reset, several zones, combination hydronic and radiant. Anyway, gas bills have been over $700, but it ain't any of the above. It's the lousy duct work (poorly insulated, long runs) in the unheated attic space. We're losing a ton of heat. Our job is proportionately alot worse than yours. When it gets warm we plan to have the entire thing ripped out and replaced.

You may find heat escaping into the AC duct system. The answer is a competent pro, with competent the operative word. Doing this work properly takes real skill, see if you can find the right guy (then give me his phone number!)