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staple up job
hvac64
Member Posts: 24
Hi guys, Im doing a house for a good friend of mine. He wanted to go w/ hydroair,but upon looking at the house, the lay out, windows, etc.( 1st floor 1700 sq. ft. 2nd floor 600 sq ft.)I told him he should do radiant( And Im mostly a hot air/ ac guy).To me , hydroair just didnt make sense. He would have to buy 2 of everything ( airhandlers, condensers, ducts )Now ive never done a complete house in radiant, so i called in the local supply house and they did a thorough takeoff and we decided to use onyx tubing for the underfloor ( mostly hardwood ) install. We are also installing the Munchkin 140m w/ indirect hw. Im looking for any/all opinions on job. Tryin to get it RIGHT!! the 1st time. Thanks tom
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Comments
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Try not to do it like this.
I just looked at this under performing job friday.
when temperature drops, so does supply temps,house does not go past 52*
Notice the flue on this fairly new install.
I would suggest primary/sec piping with "smart" mixing valves or injection. I'm not sure how the contractor balanced circuits with 3/4" loop wraped around basement and tees off to onix tube at various location.
Heat loss is a must,I don't think previous contractor did one or properly if he did.
this house has small foot print but lots of glass,my calcs show staple up temps at 174* at design temps.
I will recommend boiler re-pipe,better contols,manifolds,"real insulation "and plates to this pissed off home owner.
Just things you should consider.0 -
Seriously consider reflective plates. My radiant job requires water temps of 145* with staple up to plywood under hardwood. I think it would have worked better with reflectors. Also include water temp modulation based on outdoor temp. I need to manually adjust my water temp on mild days. This summer I put in the correct controls...my plumber should have! Be sure to have good air elimination and adequate supply piping to deliver the head without velocity noise. The heat transfer on staple up jobs is much less than you might think. Overall, your friend will be thrilled. Nothing like warm floors!0 -
Thanks for the responses. A couple of things, Were going to be using P/S piping, outdoor reset, boiler vents w/ PVC,reflectix insulation above r30 fibreglass, Watts radiant manifolds. It should be a sweeeeet system ( so Ive been told
. We are also installing 13 s.e.e.r. a/c , with variable speed air handler. 0 -
Here's a thought, have someone else do a radiant heatloss and design. I doubt that the entire house can be heated properly using onyx tubing staple under the sub floor. Its not likely that its going to be a one temp system. Especially bathrooms and kitchens.
And drop the onyx for the whole house. If you have to go under the subfloor, use aluminum panels. Ridgid aluminum if you can get them like RTI.
And if he's really your friend, put in a Buderus or a Viessmann boiler.
PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.
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Onyx and Plates
don't mix. Onyx is quite a bit more expensive per foot than O2 Barrier tube, add some plates the cost per foot of Barrier tube and plates comes close to Onyx but you will have a much happier friend and better heat. Pay attention to the heat loss calcs and floor coverings....0 -
Floor coverings
Yes: be sure to determine if the home will have throw rugs, sofas, easy chairs...all which block the flow of radiant heat. Normal heat loss calcs don't take this into account, since they affect radiation, not loss.0 -
Wirsbo and stadler make good reflectors what state is your job in.what kind of thermostats will tou be using.
joe0 -
Hi Guys, heres a few more things. Job is going to be hardwood and tile ( bath ). Im sure theyll have throw rugs. As far as the state of the job, its just roughed framed. We are installing the radiant on 1st floor (hwwbb on 2nd ), should be fairly easy, all joists (tgi's )run front to back 16" o.c. no steel beams, no strapping. Another concern I have is cabinets, hes got alot of kitchen and bath cabinets. House has high ceilings 9 - 11', thats why I was thinkin radiant.As far as tstats, digital, probably no set back. We'll change boiler set temp. instead.0 -
If your are
using the Minchkin get the Vision 1 kit that plugs into the Munchkins ability to give the outdoor reset and domestic water temp & priority control that's already built into the control board of the Munchkin. Works great. Try to make the radiant constant circulation too. It's a little nicer with more even temps. Then size the HWBB to 140 degree temps so you can get better efficiency from the M140 by running lower temps. Good Luck WW
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Wayne, We are putting in the vision 1, I took a look at the installation instructions,what could be easier? How do you control constant circ?0 -
sounds like a great first radiant job are you putting in floor sensors is this job in the new england area.The reason im asking to tell you other distributors in your area. also I like what ted said about the buderus they are some great boilers.and if you ever need any help tech support is right there.0 -
Where are you located?
What area?0 -
is he gypcreating the floors?
If not you will have to run double loops with reflector plates under the floor. We did this in a house with a 14 foot domed ceiling an all glass over looking a lake.
worked out real well. 80 at floor level, 68 a t-stat level and 56 at peak of dome. Very comfortable house and no lost heat up high. No sense running much under cabinets. but do run coils under the tub and shwr base in the bathroom; and of course be careful about pad and carpet.0 -
by the way
we used the wirsbo on that one with their plates0 -
since when?
onyx and plates don't mix? can you tell me why? inquiring minds want to know!!!
Leo G0 -
Onix with plates?
Onix is designed and promoted by the mfg to be plateless. You could put a plate on anything and probably improve its performance, heck you could even plate garden hose I imagine. The problem is plate size and proper contact. I haven't found a plate for EPDM (Onix) and the Mfg doesn't recommend using them, but I guess I haven't looked that hard. Onix has a outside Dia. of .875 and Pex or Pex-Al is .63 . Also Onix is about 5 times more expensive than Pex 02 barrier tube around here, so if you start adding plates to an Onix system it becomes very, very, pricey per Btu. Has anyone tried Onix with plates out there?0 -
Namasta Singh.
Yikes! that , is sad to look at.0 -
The early rubber
tube back in the Entran days actually would fit in transfer plates.
Onix has put on a lot of weight in it's old age! That has to be a concern with transfer from the fluid stream to the outer wall?
I'd like to see the Onix plates as a fixer product for those ocassions where the bare tube just doesn't cut it. For whatever reason
Much better than ripping out and replacing with pex and plates which is a common fix in addition to adding supplemental or cranking the rubber to 180°. None of which are great options for the HO.
I believe the Onix transfer plate has been designed, seems to be a question at Watts corporate as to how necessary it is.
The evolution of the rubber EPDM.. Started with Solaroll which was designed as a solar panel material. The original Entran and TwinTran improved on the concept with more of an engineered hose product.
As the product evolved more layers were added for durability, O2 barriers, etc. As you can see it has added wall thicknes, cost and a bit less flexible to work, compared to early Entran versions.
Maybe if enough contractors request Onix transfer plates??? Or convince Dale into to pushing a order to send out to contractors to beta test. I'd like to watch a side by side comparison (plated and non plated, with the Infared camera over the course of 8 hour in a loaded panel test.
hot rod
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Something screwy with pricing
The price difference around here between quality Pex Products (such as Wirsbo and Rehau) and Onix is only about 2.5 times. Adding good plates to the Pex makes the price of pex per foot about 30% higher than Onix(but you can expect more heat output, if it is needed. For me labor costs soar when using plates.
Boilerpro0 -
well Bart in a weeks'
time we are starting a huge job all in-joist. Our Watts rep figured that plates would be a good thing to use for this project, so we came up with using 3/8" onix in the Ipex 1/2" plates. The onix should be arriving late this or early next week, so I'll let you know how the fit is.
Leo G0 -
Danger, danger, Leo
the 3/8" Onix is a far cry from a good fit in 1/2" plates. Especially the heavy extruded type that don't give or spread.
Forcing it in will give you an oval, reduced size fluid channel. I'd highly recommend you run this by the engineers at Watts Radiant.
I suggest you use pex or PAP in the transfer plate areas.
Watts Radiant sells extruded plates now, even 8 footers. Although not all the reps and dealers know this
hot rod
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use plates
Don't even consider going with anything other that pex and plates. We've done every installation method known over the last 14 years and these are the best thing to ever come out. The higher cost should not be considered. Comfort and efficiency is more important. Lower water temp = higher efficiency.
Be sure to have someone in the know do a load and get your temps correct. You will probably have more than one temperature. And like you said you want it done right go with a weather reponsive control and don't skimp on a boiler.0 -
B pro
actually I can shoot plates up as fast, at 12" nailing, or faster, than Onix at 6" staples spacing. With my special jig I can hold and space two 8 foot plates and blast them both at the same time. So labor wise that part is a wash.
But you do have to come back and tube the plates and that is where the labor factor goes up a bit.
An Onix barb and SelfTite lists for $5.62 add 2.27 if you chose the nicer SureClamp. A pex barb and crimp ring is under a buck! That adds up when you have more, shorter 3/8" loops than 1/2" pex
The nicer heat spread, lower operating temperature, ability to shop pex or PAP, etc. Ease of insulation without funky, dusty, reflectors. The choice to use plates becomes clearer for me.
A lot of the decision comes down to the needed BTY/sq ft requirement. Personally I feel Onix staple up with the current thick wall performs more like a suspended tube than a plate system. Much higher supply temperature needed and lower BTU/ ft. output. Floor output is based on the floor surface getting to 80 or so degrees. My IF camera work shows stripes of that temperature without plates, so you don't have a true consistent emmitter temperature with a narrow contact patch of bare stapled up tube.
The goal is to get the heat from the fluid stream to the floor surface, adding another R value of the tube wall thickness puts you further from this goal. Usually out of the reach of efficient condensing's sweet spot. The studies I have seen show 15- 20 degree higher supply temperature needed. I'm just not buying the 150, 60, or 180° operating temperatures in this current big picture, high efficient, radiant world. May as well use HW BB at that temperature
You just can't argue the case against conduction transfer and the use of a conductor (aluminum) as opposed to an excellent insulator (rubber)
Rubber is used in other industries as an excellent insulator, wire and cords, screwdriver handles, gloves for linesman working on high voltage, noise and vibration connectors on cars, etc.
In the early days when it was a thin wall thickness it was a little easier to swallow. Looks to me like it is pushing a 5/32 wall thickness these days!
For me I just don't offer staple up hose to my customers any more, so the price comparison between plates and rubber staple up is a mute point.
And I make more money selling a higher priced, plated system
hot rod
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staple up
Use pex and plates.I used vanguard tubing I think it was and made my own plates.while your at it stick a water coil in that duct line. that way you have a second stage of heat if the floor is not cutting it.My old farm house falls into this situation when its real cold.Also you con bring a humidifier into the game as well. good luck
mike0 -
Hot Rod
Could you post a picture of the jig you built that allows you to hold up 2 plates at the same time?
Tom A0 -
Hot Rod
Could you post a picture of the jig you built that allows you to install 2 plates simultaneously?
Tom A0 -
How about this HR
> actually I can shoot plates up as fast, at 12"
> nailing, or faster, than Onix at 6" staples
> spacing. With my special jig I can hold and space
> two 8 foot plates and blast them both at the same
> time. So labor wise that part is a wash.
>
> But
> you do have to come back and tube the plates and
> that is where the labor factor goes up a
> bit.
>
> An Onix barb and SelfTite lists for $5.62
> add 2.27 if you chose the nicer SureClamp. A pex
> barb and crimp ring is under a buck! That adds up
> when you have more, shorter 3/8" loops than 1/2"
> pex
>
> The nicer heat spread, lower operating
> temperature, ability to shop pex or PAP, etc.
> Ease of insulation without funky, dusty,
> reflectors. The choice to use plates becomes
> clearer for me.
>
> A lot of the decision comes
> down to the needed BTY/sq ft requirement.
> Personally I feel Onix staple up with the current
> thick wall performs more like a suspended tube
> than a plate system. Much higher supply
> temperature needed and lower BTU/ ft. output.
> Floor output is based on the floor surface
> getting to 80 or so degrees. My IF camera work
> shows stripes of that temperature without plates,
> so you don't have a true consistent emmitter
> temperature with a narrow contact patch of bare
> stapled up tube.
>
> The goal is to get the heat
> from the fluid stream to the floor surface,
> adding another R value of the tube wall thickness
> puts you further from this goal. Usually out of
> the reach of efficient condensing's sweet spot.
> The studies I have seen show 15- 20 degree higher
> supply temperature needed. I'm just not buying
> the 150, 60, or 180° operating temperatures in
> this current big picture, high efficient, radiant
> world. May as well use HW BB at that temperature
>
>
> You just can't argue the case against
> conduction transfer and the use of a conductor
> (aluminum) as opposed to an excellent insulator
> (rubber)
>
> Rubber is used in other industries as
> an excellent insulator, wire and cords,
> screwdriver handles, gloves for linesman working
> on high voltage, noise and vibration connectors
> on cars, etc.
>
> In the early days when it was
> a thin wall thickness it was a little easier to
> swallow. Looks to me like it is pushing a 5/32
> wall thickness these days!
>
> For me I just
> don't offer staple up hose to my customers any
> more, so the price comparison between plates and
> rubber staple up is a mute point.
>
> And I make
> more money selling a higher priced, plated system
>
>
> hot rod
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
the tubing is black, and as we all know, black "emits" heat better the most other colours!
~
Leo G0 -
Evolution of the fin fixture
The first version (copper)was built at the job site. But it did not hold up to the jobsite abuse, ie pounding it into the plates all day. Too soft of a material.
The next version is built with EMT electrical conduit. Holds up better but the handle still needs some ergonomic redesigning. To wide to be comfortable but does give good twisting support.
With two jigs like this and two installers a fast accurate plate install would be a breeze.
hot rod
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Evolution of a fin fixture
Thanks hr. Absolutely looks like it would be a real time saver.
We're supposed to start the plate install on Tuesday, so we'll try to fab up a couple and see how they work. We'll try the 1/2" conduit and see if we can come up with a larger diameter "handle" to make it a little easier on holding the plates up.
Tom A0 -
> actually I can shoot plates up as fast, at 12"
> nailing, or faster, than Onix at 6" staples
> spacing. With my special jig I can hold and space
> two 8 foot plates and blast them both at the same
> time. So labor wise that part is a wash.
>
HR, who make the 8' plates?
Thanks.0 -
radiantengineering.com
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hotrod
what's your jig look like??0 -
Steve
see the evolution post just below
hot rod
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8 foot plates
from Watts Radiant or Radiant Engineering www.radiantengineering.com
hot rod
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This discussion has been closed.
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