The REAL Condensing Boiler is Here !!

Rookie

I was treated to a fine presentation by Mark Avron from Buderus last night at the Cape Codder in Hyannis. The FW Webb/ Buderus sponsored event was attended by about 100 heating tech and plumbers, they were not dissappointed !
This boiler is something else, easy to service ( yearly cleaning only), has a threaded clean out in the flue vent for combustion testing, but guess what no adjustments are needed, either the unit runs to top performace or it does not , no silly gas valve adjustments, no putting your hand over the intake to get it to fire, no bad control boards or pressure switchs. Proven technology with over 1.5 million boilers installed. Sign me up, no more beta testing for this guy. Great job Buderus.

Ted_9

I am in complete agreement(although there is one other condenseing boiler I recommend out there) and cannot wait to start installing these units. Great quality and performance with proven technology and from a reliable company.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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ScottMP

I agree

Can't wait !!!

Scott

PS: Mark Avron is a Great Guy

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Leo G_99

one ? Rocky,

did they talk about any particular maitenance that would be necessary for the aluminum HX? If so what do they recommend?

Leo G

Chuckles_3

naive question

If no adjustments are needed, why does it have access for combustion testing? I thought the whole point of testing was to figure out whether adjustments are neded.

dconnors

initial set up Chuckles

have to make sure it starts off on the right foot. Fernox is the prefered chemical. Very low maintenance boiler thank you.

Unknown

But Rocky !!! ,,,

I thought you were married to the Munchkin.

Why the change of heart?

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Jamie_6

My first one showed up today at RE Micheals!!!! I can not wait to put it in.



Jamie

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Rookie

Moving away from Oz

Gary I felt it was time to click my workboot heels and say" There is no Boiler like Buderus" "There is no Boiler like Buderus"

John Jr

Approvals

I was told by someone today that it does have it's approval in Mass yet is this true? How do we check this to make sure it is approved in Mass.

Kevin__Flynn

Approvals

John,

I'm not sure what it would be approved as. It's not a boiler it has no ASME approval. It's made from alumminum so it can't be a water heater.

Kevin Flynn

Paul Pollets

ASME Rating

The GB124 does not have an ASME rating yet, so it would be wise to check your local codes to see if non-ASME rated appliances can be used in a boiler application. In WA. state, they can't be used, although it seems very few inspectors outside of King county check for ratings. I'd urge Buderus to get the ratings certified ASAP!!

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shawn_5

the boiler is not approved in mass yet sorry guys

Larry (from OSHA)

could I ask

I'd like to know just how this might compare price wise to a munchkin or viessmann? Somehow I suspect it may fall right in the middle. Also, it seems to have two efficiency ratings based on low or high temp operation. Is this typical of any condensing boiler?

Larry (from OSHA)

hr

What exactly is the definition of a \"boiler\"

only vessels that have the ASME "H" stamp?

Maybe we need a new label like heat generators or something.

From what I have learned many of these condensing units flooding the market have actually been used for years as DHW heaters.

As such, one would think the HXers are capable of much more pressure that the typical 45psi ASME test.

So really should pressure be a criteria for an approval for these types of appliances. Seems a vessel designed and tested at 150 or 300 psi, lioke WHs, outside of the ASME method, should be safe as a 30 psi relief valve protected device?

I'd be more concerned about the safeties in the gas train than the pressure vessel, knowing that it had passed a 150 or more test.

ASME, as I understand it, does not get involved in the "fired side" of the appliance.

Maybe the ANSI standards used in the water heater industry are more applicable for these heat generators?

I saw the ASME test stand for the Munchkins at HTP years ago. Seemed they were required to test at some absurd pressure to recieve the same stamp a 30lb cast iron boiler recieves.

Sounds political to me

hot rod



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Rookie

Price ?

I'll double check the price on Monday,I'm not sure what the list prices are, but I'm sold on just on the amount of installations over in Europe, pretty reliable, from working with Buderus on the oil side, I see no reason that it would n't be the same great service with this product.I'm just tired of losing money on callbacks, and being the last to find out about the "upgrades" on my previous nightmare boiler, I'm just glad it's over.

nathan gugenheim

gas adjustments

why no gas adjustments ?do they have something automatic?oxygen sensor?

saw at ish

if i saw right same honeywell valve/ebm motor as other modulating condensors?

Ted_9

I may be making this up, and Scott and Chris were at the same Buderus class so they may remember, but I though they were waiting for approval?

Update: Just checked the Buderus.net web site and its still called a heater.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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S Ebels

\"Approvals\"

Are a joke. Here in the hydronic backwater state of Michigan, we can't install anything that lacks an {H} stamp for heating purposes. Even such bulletproof pieces of equipment as the MZ are verboten by the faithful gaurdians of public safety down in Lansing.

Don't get me started on codes........I'm in the middle of an arguement with .............. nope! I'm not even going to start. I'll get so cranked up that I won't sleep tonight.

Unknown

Not Ready for Prime Time Players,,,

Big Blue.

Unfortunately, I believe the GB124 doesn't utilize OA reset. > (far as I know)

Anyone care to explain how the indoor air (IA) reset works opposed to what the rest of us are use to?

I'm under the impression that eventually the OA reset will be available but, for now we must rely on indoor air sensing feedback untill the electronics are finished up for implimentation in the US market's RE: OA setback capability.

I've been wrong before.

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

From the literature at their website, you're right--no outdoor reset. But, it does use a proprietary indoor controller (dare I call it a thermostat) that [appears] to engage in two-way communication with the boiler.

Likely it computes room temperature as a vector (force with magnitude and direction) and uses that to control the level of burner modulation.

From the system diagrams, if using the indoor reset feature, the controller becomes a sort of "master thermostat". The space with the "master" may or may not have a conventional thermostat operating a zone valve--but the "preferred" way seems to be without.

As they say, placement of the indoor reset controller/thermostat is critical. I suspect this is especially true with multi-zoned systems.

You can connect a conventional thermostat or multi-zone controller to the boiler, but it appears that you loose burner modulation as such systems are often referred to as "on-off". You cannot connect a conventional t-stat/controller AND the indoor reset controller to the boiler at the same time. In multi-zone systems with reset the "master" is going to control boiler temperature and circulator operation with added t-stats operating only zone valves (or I suppose zone circulators).

It seems to "prefer" single-temp systems when used with indoor reset.

If your system is extremely well balanced it would [seem] to be difficult to keep "slave" zones much higher in temperature than the "master". If it's important to be able to do this in your design, I'd say it would be desirable to slightly undersize the radiation in the "master" zone relative to the "slaves". The slaves won't be circulating as constantly, but they'll have some headroom.

dconnors

you are close

We are offering the boiler as indoor reset with the future addition of outdoor reset. You can run multi-temps. if you use a Tc62 outdoor reset controller. The boiler still modulates using a T-Stat but only on delta T. Using the indoor sensor the boiler will modulate off of the setpoint of the controller. We expect outdoor reset and ASME this year. Will keep you all posted and thanks again for all of your support.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks!

Did I get this right?

Say you have a four-zone system all working at the same temperature and using zone valves.

You've used the indoor reset control but no zone valve in your "comfort zone" and conventional t-stats with zone valves in the rest.

Your system is very well balanced.

The indoor reset controller will modulate the burner to keep the actual temperature very close to the desired. If space temp rises too high and the burner is at minimum modulation, the burner will shut down with an adjustable (up to 24-hour) purge/delay before the circulator stops running. If the other zones have the same room temp settings, their valves will almost always be open whenever the burner is modulating.

If you significantly reduce the setting in the "comfort zone" the other zones will (again presuming good balance) be "starved" and their temp will reduce without changing the t-stat settings.

If you want to be able to significantly reduce the temp in the "comfort zone" without affecting the rest, you would install a conventional t-stat and zone valve in the "comfort zone", keep the indoor reset controller at the desired maximum temp in the structure and make your adjustments via the conventional thermostats.

-----------------------------------------

Noticed a diagram with panel rads and TRVs. Am curious about something. TRVs were mentioned on ALL radiators. Am I correct to assume that with such a system you'd want to locate the controller in some space without a radiator--like an interior hall? If the controller and TRVd rad(s) were in the same space wouldn't there be a bit of a battle for control?

dconnors

almost.....

You dont want to install a T-Stat in the comfort zone. If your choice of a cool zone is wrong, you can correct it quite easily by changing the location of the Sensor to another zone. Because the Sensor and T-stats are both 2 wire it is easy to do. If you place radiators in the comfort zone do not use a thermostatic head. Open the flow valves completely and allow the Sensor to control the zone through reduction in water temp.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Thanks again!

Sorry to pick your brain, but the different "takes" on controlling a modulating burner are fascinating to me. Figured that someone some day would go the truly "smart" thermostat route...

The diagram showing the indoor reset control and zone valves/traditional t-stats on all zones had me a bit confused. Where would the indoor reset control be mounted in such a case? Perhaps an interior hallway?

Realize it's new, but you might want to suggest an update to the diagram with TRVs showing the TRV either left out or designated "full on" in the "comfort zone".

Am I guessing correctly that the outdoor reset control will be used to automatically adjust mixing valves in multi-temp systems? Indoor reset control on the highest temp zone?

Part of me says that indoor reset has an "edge" in some cases; outdoor in others.

Rick of N&S Supply of Catskill

GB142

We are stocking distributors for the Capitol District and Hudson Valley in New York...Give me a call, these are moving out the door as soon as they hit the dock.

Rick

N & S Supply of Catskill
(518) 943-2150

Rookie

Indoor reset

Some are of the opinion that indoor reset is all you need. Interesting, the concept is much clearer now, great post.

Drew_2

AntiFreeze

I saw some test results on that product and it failed most of the test criteria for antifreeze used with aluminum and other metals.

jerry scharf_2

indoor reset vs. outdoor reset

Here's my take from a controls point of view.

Outdoor reset is simple to build, simple to document, simple to set up boiler optimization. It provides improved comfort and efficiency compares to a fixed set point boiler. It still needs a full indoor control system of some type, and needs to be run sufficiently off optimal to allow the indoor control system to successfully control the interior.

Indoor reset is a more complex system that allows an indoor sensor to drive the water temperature. It would normally be implemented in a completely automatic mode, with possibly some kind of adjustment. Indoor reset should be better at estimating demand and can deal much better with things like setback cycles. This allows the curve to be run much closer to optimumu. On the other hand, indoor reset is vulnerable to problems from sensor location. Some can come from transient loads (open doors...) or from transient supplies (cooking, extra people...) A major difficulty can occur with houses that have dramatic solar differentials over the day, making there be no point that is always the coolest.

I like indoor reset better, but there may be certain situations where it can be difficult to get a house to optimum comfort. We will need some honest manufacturers to get any sense of how often and to what degree the potential problems of indoor reset occur. It's just too easy to blow this off as installation error when it is actually a control systems design problem. I expect them to be fairly rare, but only the field can tell this.

jerry

ScottMP

Drew

Instead of just throwing a comment out like that, why not back it up with the information or a site where we can view the information.

This product has been used in Europe for twenty years I would be supprised that it would " Fail most of the test criteria ".

We try and not deal with hearsay on this site.

Scott



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Drew_2

Antifreeze

My apologies, just thought somebody might have seen the same report. If you would like a copy, just email me.

Also, my Dad used Alcohol for antifreeze in his Farm tractor for years. It might have been the best solution at the time, but technology moves forward.

Joe@buderus

Anti-freeze

Drew, I don't see your e-mail address, please call me or e-mail me at jkennard@buderus.net.
If you have information I would be interested in seeing it and will follow up.
Thanks,

Mark Hunt

Oui

вы лекарство

Rookie

Gary when were you Wrong? Out door reset

With the Buderus full modulation you could always use a Taco 700, most of the time you are using a Taco control box just get it as an expanable, plug in the taco 700 ( outdoor reset)and away you go.How much more can you save, are we squeezing too hard?
Is there any problem with that?