Boiler fails inspection due to a dropped header

Steamhead

show dropped headers. The ones I'm familiar with are the Independence series.

Sounds like someone needs to talk to that man's supervisor.

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Unknown

Just got off the Nextel with my supervisor

He told me this job we installed in late November failed because we piped it in a way that the inspector has never seen . Since a drop header is not included in the Peerless piping diagrams , he concluded it is not right .

The inspector also failed the job because we used black malleable fittings on the header . And we have a 3/4 inch nipple and ell on the discharge side of the relief valve ( I guess the steel nipple and coupling before the relief has no chance of clogging , huh ? ) .

Are there any online resources that show steam systems with drop headers ? Any boiler manufacturer's show it in their literature ? Dan , do you include this type of header in any of your books ? The inspector is looking for written diagrams I guess .

And does anyone know of a specific code that prohibits the use of malleable steel on residential steam mains ?

I can see exactly where this is heading . If the inspector busts our chops on this one , I'll be told to not drop our headers anymore . Are there any reps from Peerless who lurk here ?

Thanks in advance for any help .

Constantin

Paging Robert O'Conner

Failing a drop-header because one hasn't seen one before has to be the best admission of incompetence that an inspector can make. Did he/she pull up in a horse and buggy considering how newfangled them horseless carriages are? :-)

But seriously, I hope that the code luminaries here can come to your help quickly. Below is a diagram from the LGB manual that I got to know so well. It shows how to pipe multiple LGBs together, and that's a drop header if I'm not mistaken.

David Sutton_5

Sweet..Install Ron Jr

Give me that dorks phone # i'll set him right for ya buddy!! all kidding aside the man needs to attend one of dans steam classes so he will be better equipt to preform his funtion. let us know how you make out.


p/s i can still get you a truck anytime your ready hehehe

Unknown

I remember when we started

using Burnham , we were given an itemized list of nipple sizes for the various V8 series boiers . Different configurations for using one or 2 ports , and I believe there might have been a diagram for a drop header . I have to look around to see if I still have them , it's been a few years .

The Wall is without a doubt the biggest resource for steam piping in the country . I would follow the advice of you , Noel Murdough , Matt Sweeney , Gerry Gill , Dan Foley , many others , and of course , Dan the Man . Having seen a drop header for the first time , done by Noel , and then using them myself on dozens of installs , I can without a doubt say a drop header does separate carryover water into the boiler main better than no drop at all .

The problem is the inspector won't take my years of steam knowlege ( with all of your help ) at face value . He's going to want something in writing - maybe another boiler manufacturer's literature , maybe a steam heating handbook . The drop works too well to be just a secret trick of the trade . I left an email message at the Peerless website , looking for an OK to use a drop header on their boilers . Hope to get a response . Thanks alot Frank for the help .

B. Tice

unreal

I can't believe that. Probably one of the best steam jobs done in the entire state of NY that month and this moron does not like it.

DaveGateway

!

Nice job, Ron.
Too bad the lunatics are running the asylum.

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todd s

Drop Header

I have a copy of Burnham's piping diagram(ala Jim Roche) in my hand right now. If you want I'll fax it to your office first thing tommorow. I know its not Peerless' but if it will help let me know.

don_52

diagrams

Ron,

Here you go

Unknown

I think I'm going back to the job tomorrow

Hopefully the inspector will be there so I can educate him in the ways of steam . I can partially understand why he might fail the boiler . If he is taught that the piping should match the diagrams - and sees different - he might , just might , have a legit reason . But I cannot comprehend how the small drop in the header would make him think it would impede steam performance . He's gotta know that most of the steam mains have to be pitched to bring the condensate back to the return , right ?

Thanks for the diagram and the help Constantin . It does show a drop where the 2 boiler supplies meet . I really need a diagram showing a drop on one boiler though . Repiping the 100 or so drop header steamers we did in this inspector's area will make me vomital .

Paul Mitchell_2

Ron

> He told me this job we installed in late November

> failed because we piped it in a way that the

> inspector has never seen . Since a drop header is

> not included in the Peerless piping diagrams , he

> concluded it is not right .

>

> The inspector

> also failed the job because we used black

> malleable fittings on the header . And we have a

> 3/4 inch nipple and ell on the discharge side of

> the relief valve ( I guess the steel nipple and

> coupling before the relief has no chance of

> clogging , huh ? ) .

>

> Are there any online

> resources that show steam systems with drop

> headers ? Any boiler manufacturer's show it in

> their literature ? Dan , do you include this type

> of header in any of your books ? The inspector is

> looking for written diagrams I guess .

>

> And

> does anyone know of a specific code that

> prohibits the use of malleable steel on

> residential steam mains ?

>

> I can see exactly

> where this is heading . If the inspector busts

> our chops on this one , I'll be told to not drop

> our headers anymore . Are there any reps from

> Peerless who lurk here ?

>

> Thanks in advance

> for any help .

Paul Mitchell_2

Ron

I think or hope he will liten up. The inspectors are a piece of work. Nothing wrong with regular fittings. Nothing even wrong with the iron pipe on the relief. You could pipe the whole thing in black pipe if you wanted you would just have to cut off the threads at the bottom so no one could put a cap on. I really find it ashame that a inspector fail someone for silly things and on such a sweet job. You have done this before I am sure is this a differant town or new inspector?

Unknown

David

You might see me pretty soon if the drop header is " outlawed " here . In the future , you can count on us installing a boiler which has a drop header in it's diagrams . Or we won't install a drop at all . Thanks alot Dave .

Unknown

I hope we can

straighten things out , without breaking into the header .
I hate doing things twice . Thanks alot B. Tice .

Bob_19

Poor Guy, though

just remember, most guys never knew that using the change of direction technique acted as a primitive steam scruber until they heard of it.
Granted the inspector is suppose to know more than his inspectees, but he should look into the practice now that he has been exposed to it.

Dropping the boiler riser into the steam header has been used in high pressure plants for decades upon decades, even plants with scrubers do this, also the bends act as a "expansion bend" relieving stresses on the riser to header connection.

J.C.A._3

In the immortal words of Click and Clack....

Bo-o-o-o-gus ! Just because he's never seen the Great wall of China, does it not exist?

Calling Firedragon, What and how do we tell a BOZO like this NICELY ?

Ron, I wouldn't sweat it. (hard pipe, yeah that's the ticket) Someone will step in and set him straight. If not, you already know who to call and they WILL. Chris

Unknown

I'm looking for the diagrams right now

With all the accumulated lit I have over the years , I doubt I'll find it though . I'll email you later if I need the pages faxed , thanks very much Todd . I really appreciate the help .

Unknown

You're a lifesaver Don

These pics help us out immensely . Where did you get the last pic from ? Thanks a million !

gerry gill

unbelievable

power run amuck, by a ****....nice install..i once got a local inspector overturned by calling the office of the state architect...the guy was so mad at me he wouldn't come back to the job but sent an underling..i'd be on the phone to his boss..what about the local boiler manufactures rep? are they any help?

Unknown

That's the next step

My supervisor is good friends with the local rep for Peerless . I hope he can persuade the company to make a statement about drop headers and their use .

We have a similar ongoing problem with an inspector who insists on a draft regulator on the Weil Mclain boilers we install off the floor in a Levitt ranch . Nevermind that there is hardly any room to install one , or that we never had an excessive draft issue with the hundreds of Weils we installed off the floor . And nevermind that NFPA31 says to follow the boiler specs , and Weil says to install one IF there is excessive draft . We're also looking to Weil for a similar statement . Thanks Gerry .

Weezbo

try a page out of weil mclain catalogue page 144 , 2003.

"MBS Steam Systems use drop headers and drip traps to dry the steam before it enters the system. dry steam means quieter, more reliable steam system operation." end of quote..... and "Offset headers allow piping to expand and contract freely"..........same page

todd s

These are the same diagrams

I have. Notice the "recomended" note on the top right.

Unknown

Ron, I have diagrams, too

I'm afraid they aren't the right brand.

Take what Bobby just wrote to the inspector, I agree with him completely.

If it were a Slant/Fin boiler, I'd get you that letter for him. The piping diagram is the MINIMUM amount of swing joints. The riser height is another minimum that I had a discussion with an inspector about. It didn't state that risers could be taller....

Maybe a call to Peerless Tech Service would help, and ask for a manager or director, or even a Commercial Sales Manager, or someone else there that can help that HAS some steam knowledge to share.

Noel

gehring_3

So what is the final word on the Malleable vs. Cast fitting debate? Why would that matter (other than ease of busting apart later)

don_52

don't rememeber,,,

Ron,

it was in the appendices of a manual, maybe Weil,
i'll do some fishin, course the others were posted
by Mr. Stanton right here.

as far as the mallable fittings go those are covered under ASME B16.3. most states have adopted the IMC materials spec's, it's listed in ours, as is others that i check regularly.

give me a few and i'll post them okay?

todd s

cast fittings

I know everyone says you can break these apart. I actually don't think its that easy to break them. I always feel like something else is going to let loose when we try this. I personally just cut the nipple in a few spots then crush or chisel the rest out.

gerry gill

excellant Don

i archieved them myself, just in case the need arises.. ;-)

D Logan Ireland Oil Co Inc

Steamhead, You are correct, take the time to explain to the inspector your installation and why you have installed it this way. The reason he deams it unacceptible is because he perhaps has not seen this type installation before. To criticize this inspector for the sake of criticizing may feel good on this thread but no one gains any insight as to the improvement of the approval process for future inspections. Help the inspector learn. Everybody wins. Dave Logan Ireland Oil Co

Mad Dog

What Town Ron...and who is the inspector?

Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Start off nice and explain that ....just like the pl;umbing code

states.....these are minimum requirements. Once you show hime the manufacturers diagrams he cannot deny you. Good luck, let me know if I can help. Mad Dog

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Unknown

Any diagrams you have

could help me out alot Noel . I want to show the inspector that even though Peerless does not show a drop header in their manual , it is a very widely accepted practice in steam piping . Thank you very much Noel .

Robert O'Connor_7

Ron Jr..

Did he leave a sticker? If so, what did it say? Give me the State, County, Town, Inspectors name, address of the municipal building (Or third party agency) and we'll have some fun with this one.(Its up to you)

Ron, I've been viewing your pics for a while now and I gotta tell ya, your jobs rank right up there. Certainly the inspector has a basis or a code reference for which he is citing for. I've found nothing in the NJ code, which, by the way is the International Mech & Fuel gas codes that would even remotely give merit to his claim.

Gather some more info for me and I'll start my engine. Just remember I go all the way! Once we start, there's NO turning back. There may be an easy way out without knockin the building down but I need more info.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Constantin

Robert, you're great!

It's wonderful to see how the folks on the wall support each other. I hope this inspector has his or her attitude adjusted before the need arises for a 16" Iowa-class gun salute across the bow...

It's just crazy when beautiful installs like this one from masters in the trade get red-flagged while hacks that don't even pull permits are allowed to run amuck. I wish code enforcement came down harder on hacks than honest installers... nuts!

Ron, I hope that meeting goes as well as it should. With any luck, the inspector boned up on steamer knowledge in the evening, and now knows that your install is better than the minimums called for by Peerless in their diagrams...

Unknown

I think this was in Baldwin

I don't know which inspector it is , I'll know tomorrow . I'm always nice to the inspectors , we all gotta work together to keep the homeowner safe and happy . Thanks Matt I might take you up on your offer .

Unknown

Robert

I'll find out tomorrow how far the higher ups are willing to go with this . We do ALOT of work in the area and don't want to burn any bridges . I'm sure the inspector is interpreting the boiler diagram literally , and as you and me know , theres way more than one way to do the right thing .

I will also know tomorrow exactly what was written up on the violation report . Did you ever hear of a job being knocked down for the use of malleable on the steam main ?

Thank you very much for the kinds works and the offer of help . It makes me feel so much better with you in our corner Robert .

Unknown

A little Teflon on the threads

and that fitting will come apart after decades of use .

EBEBRATT-Ed

Nothing wrong with the relief valve, mallable fittings or the dropped header.

Maybe you just need to explain it to him. Further action depends on his attitude.

Good luck
Ed

Dave Yates (PAH)

Therein lies the rub

Any inspector worthy of the position would speak with the installer first when seeing something they've never seen before or, much less, understand. In the absense of a code passage specifically ruling drop-headers as being disallowed, he's not authorized to make up his own rules.

The worst part is the potential damage to a contractor's credibility in the eyes of the HO when work is not passed. Inspectors should be consumate professionals. Ideally they should know what it is they're looking at, but that would be a perfect world I suppose.

Don't know it - flunk it. Never saw it - flunk it. Act first retract reluctantly later.

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Unknown

Here you go Ron

Here are the diagrams you are looking for. Hope they help.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

tim smith

Drop header problem

Ron, give Peerless a call direct, I will bet they will be glad to give a letter regarding the drop header being allowed on their boiler, they have no reason not to. Good luck.

Unknown

Hey Ron

I have some pages I'd like to fax to you. I don't have them scanned for internet use.

Noel