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Blueray Furnace

Tim_26
Tim_26 Member Posts: 7
in THE MAIN WALL
I have a Blueray furnace in my house. Does anyone have any tips or hints about how to make this thing run good. It seems like no matter what I do it trips out every couple days. The fuel pressure is 100 psi, the flue has been cleaned, the nozzle has been replaced, the transformer tested good, the electrodes have been adjusted and the assembly is clean. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Comments

  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    Did you

    Did you test the cad cell? What is your ohm's reading. What kind of primary are you running and did you test that? Is the unit fired with the proper nozzle? Did you test the transformer or did someone else? Have you replaced the filter and strainer? Pump coupling ok? Burner motor could have a flat spot. Alot of possibilities and hard to diagnose over the net. Has a pro looked at it? When you start changing thing's you need to run an efficiency and smoke test to make sure the setup is proper. Even though you may have used the same nozzle it can burn different affecting performance...
  • Tim_26
    Tim_26 Member Posts: 7


    It doesnt have a cad cell, it has a stack pyrometer.
  • Tim_26
    Tim_26 Member Posts: 7


    The furnace doesnt have a cad cell it has a stack pyrometer. I changed the oil filter a few weeks ago. I will have to check the pump coupler, it may be slipping. I checked the xfmr myself with a tester and a screwdriver and it is strong. It has the correct nozzle in it .60 70 degree CC. I have alot of experience fixing oil fired units, but there isnt many bluerays out there and I know sometimes they can be hard to adjust. thanks for the response.
    Tim
  • RonWHC
    RonWHC Member Posts: 232
    If it is a true

    Blue Ray Furnace w/ a Blue Ray Burner, there is no cad cell. Cad cells don't do blue. Should be a pyrostat in the flue pipe just above the burner. This one is not for the DIYer.

    It has to be over 20 years old. Methinks it is retirement time. Time to see what new furnace goodies your service company has to offer. You will sleep better at night.

  • Tim_26
    Tim_26 Member Posts: 7


    I will retire it after this season, but of course it is giving me the most problems at the end of the heating season. I will probally get a Trane furnace. I heard those are good ones.
  • Paul Mitchell_2
    Paul Mitchell_2 Member Posts: 184
    Worked on

    too many bluerays. I had times when I had to just keep changing nozzles until one worked correctly. Could be as simple as sucking in air. If all was fine till you fixed it...what did you do.? Sometimes the answer is simple and we look too hard. If you are staying oil the only furnace to get is a Thermopride. Please research this and you will agree. Be very careful with the blueray.
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
    oops

    sorry brain quit working around 3. :) Been a dog's age since I touched a blueray...
  • jim_49
    jim_49 Member Posts: 24


    BlueRay boilers can be converted, but not furnaces. Best advice could be to replace the unit. There more trouble than any other unit out there. CO2,stack temp. tight gaskets, and a very clean heat exchanger mean everything to perfect combustion on these units. BEST ADVISE IS TO REPLACE.
  • Tim_26
    Tim_26 Member Posts: 7


    I am going to replace it in a few months, I am going to install a gas furnace, but I have to wait until the ground thaws until the gas company can dig the line in. So I just have to make it work as well as possible for the next 80 gallons of fuel oil. Thank you for the responses.
  • Bruce M.
    Bruce M. Member Posts: 143
    As a Blueray expert I can offer you some tips

    First make sure you use a Monarch brand CC nozzle and do not touch the nozzle tip with your bare hands. Make sure the electrodes are set exactly to specification distance ahead, above and apart. When you take out the nozzle holder make sure everything is decarboned. If you give me the exact model number I can give you the electrode measurements. Bluerays are vey fussy about using the exact nozzle. I have seem them stop running in less than a week with an incorrect nozzle. Brands other than Monarch do not do well even if they have the correct size. CO reading is a must with them. When they are set up corectly they run well. They do not tolerate sloppy workmanship and that led to their bad reputaion along with the fact that a few people died from CO poisoning.
  • Robert O'Connor_9
    Robert O'Connor_9 Member Posts: 5
    check this out

    http://www.recall-warnings.com/cpsc-content-87-87066.html

    regards

    Robert

    ME
  • Tim_26
    Tim_26 Member Posts: 7


    I am working out of town this week, but tomorrow night I will be able to get the model number so you can tell me the electrode specs. It does have a monarch nozzle in it and I was very careful not to touch the tip or strainer when I put it in. .60 70 degree CC. It burns with a really blue flame, but it smells, and every couple days it doesnt light and it trips. Thanks for the help. Tim
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    All right Robert and I have just 6 more words.

    dump it, dump it, dump it!
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    Oooops, I lied!

    These things are CO machines, FACT! If it smells the fire is way off, but if it's not teseted you just don't know.

    If this is a customer's home do it quick. If it's in your own home, tomorrow. I've worked on dozens, testified and given testimony on more and never want to see one again.

    BTW, as an employee of a former dealer I still have all of the sales and technical iterature, FACT!
  • Tim_26
    Tim_26 Member Posts: 7


    I am also a former employee of a former dealer, but due to my age (27) I was still learning my ABCs when these were in their prime, so I have very limited experience on them, and I hav never seen a manual on them. I am currently working for a company installing and programming BAS controls. It hurts my pride that I can not make this thing work better.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed_6
    EBEBRATT-Ed_6 Member Posts: 2


    Those things-I don't want to see one either.Change in oil temp, change in draft ANYTHING used to carbon up.

    I HAD BETTER LUCK WITH JOHN CAMERON SWAZEY AND THE TIMEX WATCH. DIDN'T HE USED TO ADVERTISE THOSE??
  • Alan_11
    Alan_11 Member Posts: 64
    blueray furnace

    Ripped out my dad's "death ray" about 10 years ago , put in a Bard bought from "Firedragon" , no trouble sleeping at night, and haven't touched it since. They used to send him a letter every fall warning about annual service needed to prevent Co poisining. Oil heat is the best , but blueray is like our achilles heel. Dump it quick !!!
  • Alan_11
    Alan_11 Member Posts: 64
    blueray furnace

    Ripped out my dad's "death ray" about 10 years ago , put in a Bard bought from "Firedragon" , no trouble sleeping at night, and haven't touched it since. They used to send him a letter every fall warning about annual service needed to prevent Co poisining. Oil heat is the best , but blueray is like our achilles heel. Dump it quick !!!
  • Bruce M.
    Bruce M. Member Posts: 143
    Tim, I believe you have a BF 60

    If you have a BF 60 the nozzle is a Monarch .60GPH 70 degree CC. The electrode specifications are:
    1/8" ahead of the nozzle
    7/16" above the centerline of the nozzle
    1/8" separation between the tips of the electrodes
    Take the time to do this carefully and correctly. It is one of the key points to proper operation and is almost always overlooked.
    Make sure the CO reading is 12-1/2% to 13-1/2%
    Draft at the breach .01" to .02"
    Make sure the air metering plate is clean and installed tightly so that there is no movement. Make sure that if there are any holes in the flue pipe that they are taped over using the proper metalic heatproof tape. Let me know how it works out.
  • jim sokolovic
    jim sokolovic Member Posts: 439
    The last blueray I worked on...

    had a dead cat in the flue pipe (got in through draft regulator) - you want to talk about smelly operation? Luckily no one (20 other cats + 1 very old lady) in the house was affected. I can still remember my dad pointing at the first one I ever saw and giving a stern warning about this previously unheard of mysterious danger - Carbon Monoxide!
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    WARNING WARNING!!!!!

    HEED MY WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bluerays are extrememly dangerous!!!!!!!!!! they were shut down by the govt because of high CO!!!!!! Get a CO detector now!!!!!! I can't believe you still have one!!!!!!!!! Get rid of it now!!!!!!!!! I am not trying to scare you I am real serious. They reinjest their own exhaust by design which is the recipe for high CO.
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!DANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    WARNING WARNING!!!!!



    HEED MY WARNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bluerays are extrememly dangerous!!!!!!!!!! they were shut down by the govt because of high CO!!!!!! Get a CO detector now!!!!!! I can't believe you still have one!!!!!!!!! Get rid of it now!!!!!!!!! I am not trying to scare you I am real serious. They reinjest their own exhaust by design which is the recipe for high CO.

    and go this site now as suggested earlier!!!!!!!

    http://www.recall-warnings.com/cpsc-content-87-87066.html
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    AND

    no matter how you set them up they will produce CO as far as I'm concerned.

    This is a prime example of why homeowners should not do their own work unless they really now what they are doing AND a prime example of why you-yes you all- should be extremely careful when giving advice to homeowners on this site or any site.
  • Bruce M.
    Bruce M. Member Posts: 143
    This is a classic case of failure to perform correct maintenance

    I believe it is due to the numerous sloppy oil company mechanices that never went to Blueray school and worked on these unit without the benefit of a Blueray service manual. A Blueray can operate correctly with a little knowledge and patience. The typical in a hurry mechanic without the correct parts and correct settings will always have a problem with a Blueray. If you carefully read the "Recall", none of these boilers or furnaces were recalled. A sticker was to be installed that indicated that proper service was to be performed. Unfortunately, even today that is often a rarity.
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    That was just the first step

    my friend. Initially the company had co-operated with the govt and the govt bought their story of it being tech's not trained and lack of maintenance. Then after continued CO problems we were told to convert them to regular Carlin 100's, by changing the tube, assembly and control and I think raising pump pressure to overcome the strange chamber design, which is all that was, a converted Carlin. I believe they still had something of a CO problem after that.

    Bottom line was some you could get to run OK if you were good but that didn't last, once the word was out people wanted them out of their house.

    Customers were not happy.
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    Bruce M I must respectfully

    disagree. The company I was a service manager at had put in over 1500 of these. All of my people were BlueRay Factory Schooled, what a joke!

    The sales manager's teenage daughter was home alone one night and when her parents got home found her unconcious from CO poisoning. She spent the next three days in a hyperbaric chamber at Mass. General. The unit was later found to have a hairline in the flue collector gasket from the factory!

    I performed the first BlueRay furnace conversion using a Riello Mectron knowingly voiding the warranty. The good news was the Riello ate up the furnace in two years since they were made from recycled soup cans.

    The boilers were also converted and they work well to this day regardless of burner. That boiler by the way has never gone out of production. It is still marketed by Thermo-Dynamics as the LM Series:
    http://www.thermodynamicsboiler.com/lm_series.htm

    To tell someone it's just a lack of service is not the right thing to do and futher is quite insulting to those of us who did.

    I'm quite sure you will be in the minority when this thread goes to hyper-cyberspace.
  • jim sokolovic
    jim sokolovic Member Posts: 439
    Flue collector seal...

    Didn't you need to remove that flue collector to clean the heat exchanger, I seem to remember? Wouldn't doing that annually create more leakage possibilities than just a hairline crack in the gasket? Is there typically positive pressure there or around the combustion area? Where were the most common CO leakage (to the room) points? Thanks for more details if you can provide them!
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    It doesn't matter Jim

    they're junk, always were, there I said it!

    They make great boat anchors, that's about all they're good for!
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    doubt that...

    ... not enough mass or area. The fishermen in Maine sometimes spring for multiple engine blocks... nowadays with scrap prices being as high as they are... might make more sense to recycle that and buy a mushroom anchor for the muddy conditions that predominate most mooring areas. Lighter, sets deeper, sticks better.

    :-)
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    We found CO leaks around almost every opening

    of any kind.

    It's true that setting up was a pain and that it's really tough to do it right when management and the entire industry is trying to deny that CO exists on oilfired equipment.

    It was these units that made me buy my first Monoxor (1970's) and I don't mean the current electronic one, I mean the little tube and squeeze pancake one.

    That was replaced by a Neotronics unit (electronic) and then the world got smart and started building today's modern units. That's most of the world, BTW, oilmen are still for the most part denying it.

    I think advising anyone, especially a homeowner to keep one is totally irresponsible. Further, in court they would mop the floor with you and you'd probably be made such a laughing stock you'd be done!

    This is a free country and you can do whatever you want, but when you are looking a judge in the eye and a lawyer is all over you like a cheap suit, then we'll see what you have to say, FACT!
  • Firedragon_4
    Firedragon_4 Member Posts: 1,436
    To this day, both

    Carlin and Beckett regret ever selling chassis to them.

    It is important to note to that both companies were sub's and not the burner OEM, that was BlueRay Systems, Inc. BlueRay owned the patent on the tube design, now the Fed's do.
  • jim_49
    jim_49 Member Posts: 24


    Blue-rays are Obsolete, I totally agree with that.BUT they were fun to work on. Gave me a challenge everytime I conronted one. They were like that nasty **** a woke up to some mornings. Going to the cust. house that had no heat and you find out they have a blue-ray. 1 st. thing I told the cust. was ..Do your basemnt windows open so I could limit the smoke when it started. OR finding the draft reg. 20-30 ft. away from the unit. Oh yeah I miss those days, Like some incurable disease. GOOD RIDDENS..
  • Ken D.
    Ken D. Member Posts: 836
    BLUERAY

    A major problem with the Blueray BF was the heat exchangers were too thin and wrong steel for the temperature of the flame. Almost all of them cracked from the extremely high temperature of the blue flame. They should have used stainless steel.
    Please remove the rear cabinet and rear heat shield and lastly the rear flue cover. Visually inspect the heat exchanger. I'm willing to bet the heat exch. has cracks in the rear combustion area. In which case the unit is toast. These cracks can cause a lock out problem. The Blueray wasn't really a bad idea. When properly set up with good draft, they ran 250 to 300 degree stack temp. with a 13 to 13 1/2% co2 with negligeble CO. They were susceptable to draft problems, and with a 300 degree stack temp., the chimney did not get too warm. The parent oil company was largely responsible for their failure. They cheapened it up to save some money and it blew up in their faces. Please be sure to check the heat exchanger. Let me know how you made out.
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    Quality control

    was a part of their problem, I think the tubes were off slightly which should have been a criticle alignment, I mean the air tube where the exhaust recirculated.

    I don't miss them and fewer people are dead or sick since they went away, end of story.
  • Al Gregory
    Al Gregory Member Posts: 260


    Furnaces were Not supposed to be converted and you were Not supposed to use them with an outside chimney. I hope children dont live in that home.You are risking peoples lives to suck up 80 gallons of oil. If it smells the heat exchanger is probably cracked. I cant believe that there is still one of them left. I installed many of them for an oil company that insisted on selling them. They were junk when they were new and now they are just dangerous and anyone that works on one or uses one is a criminal in waiting.
  • Gary Reecher
    Gary Reecher Member Posts: 111
    CPSC Recall Blue Ray Furnaces & Boilers

    Oct 27, 1987 http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml87/87066.html

  • Dave_60
    Dave_60 Member Posts: 5


    Shoot a bullet through that thing now, and, if you don't, leave your windows wide open.
  • Bruce M.
    Bruce M. Member Posts: 143
    Tim, When you do the CO2 reading

    Start with the band all the way open and work down so that you are on the "right" side of the curve. Very important. When they are set up correctly there should be zero CO.
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