Great article on alternitive energy

Mad Dog

Turkey carcasses subjected to super high temps and pressure as a fuel oil, photo-voltaic material used for making army tents that can provide enough energy to run a small command center. BDUs (Battle Dress Uniform)made of the fabric that can run commo radios, charge cell phones et cetera. Amazzing...Mad Dog

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Mitch_4

do you

have a link??

GMcD

Energy in must be less than energy out

The one thing to keep in mind is what amount of energy it takes to heat and pressureize those turkey carcasses up, to get how much oil out of them. It's the same myth as the "corn to fuel" and hydrogen fuel propaganda: the amount of energy to create the ethanol or hydrogen is more than the energy you get out of the final fuel. Not a good premise to build the future on.

Unknown

well yeah, but the energy put into ethanol is primarily directly from the sun to grow the plants.

as for hydrogen, figuring out a low-energy cracking/extraction method is what is holding it back right now, but there are some promising ideas out there, and those promising ideas are all the better if you can use solar to power whatever process is required. Hydrogen is not an energy source, as it is currently envisioned, it's an energy storage medium.

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GMcD

Ethanol energy

While the primary energy into the plants is sunlight- add up all the other energy required to grow the plants, fertilize them, harvest them, drive them to the ethanol plant, process the material, and extract the ethanol, then get the ethanol distributed to the market. Doesn't add up.

I also see the sun and wind as the primary sources of energy we need to harvest. The trick is to do it economically with the right embodied energy balance.

ken fitzpatrick

Link

solar article: http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/technology/articles/0,15114,1022207,00.html

theres a link to the turkey one in the right-most column

Lurker_2

re:

remember that oil doesn't just sprout out of the fuel pump. IT must go through the exact same steps. There is a price point at which ethanol meets petroleum. Think about it, what does a gallon of denatured alcohol cost at the hardware store? [11 bucks a gallon at msc]Most of the cost is transport and packaging, not cost of material. If ther was a distribution system for alcohol, and your car could run on it, it would compete with ~4 per gallon gas[blind guess] Same would hold for heating oil[vs corn oil etc]

Also, it is not about 'energy' it is about 'location'
Oil is in the middle east, but can be easily moved to where we need to use the 'energy' Solar energy cannot be so easily moved from saudi arabia....
With hydrogen, if a hydrogen production device was only 5 percent efficient, it would work, since the fuel[water] is 'free'

Constantin

I think it also depends on another factor...

... the ethanol we use in cars today has to be very, very pure because internal combustion engines do not tolerate much, if any moisture in their fuels. It is my understanding that 70% pure ethanol is pretty cheap to make... it's getting it to that last 99.9% which is difficult. Here, fuel cells like SOFC's hold a lot of promise, because they actually like to have extra water.

In the case of rap-seed, sunflower, corn oils, etc. for Kero/Diesel/Heating Oil applications, the amount of processing is also minimal when compared to the current cost of reforming extant crude into usable fuel, particularly when you get into low-sulfur fuels. In the case of Veggie-oils, you may have to adjust some of the rubbers used in the appliance and prevent gelling.

The gelling issue is a non-issue in most residential heating applications, because the tanks are usually stored indoors, where they are warm and happy. It's harder in transportation applications where supplemental heaters, etc. have to keep the fuel happy.

At the end of the day though, the only way we're going to get better at the whole issue of energy usage is to attack the problem from multiple directions. That is, conserve to reduce demand, increase the efficiency of fuels use, and to switch to substitute fuel choices as they become available.

jp_2

no gelling?

(((The gelling issue is a non-issue in most residential heating applications, because the tanks are usually stored indoors, where they are warm and happy. It's harder in transportation applications where supplemental heaters, etc. have to keep the fuel happy. ))))

are you saying that northern climate oil companys store all their oil inside, warm and cozy??? geeze I tend to see their trucks parked outside.
that wouldn't work around here. my cooking oil starts gelling around mid 40's.

jp_2

oops

double click

GMcD

Good points

However the oil that comes out of the ground is already "semi-processed" compared to the plant based alcohol fuels. The energy input to crack the crude into the lighter and heavier fuels and oil products are part of the equation too. Yes, at some point there ill be a cost balance and I hope to see it soon. In order to grow all that corn and canola, the suburban sprawl will have to be curtailed too, so the amount of fuel producing land balances with fuel use/demand and driving distances.

In terms of location, yes, that is going to be one of the most critical issues in the next few years. China is already purchasing controlling interests in some Canadian oil pipeline and processing companies, and those tar sands up in Ft. McMurray are starting to look pretty good in terms of location and potential reserves, and the cost to extract the bitumen. But if someone else owns them, and wants to take most of the product away from North America, then what? The supply and demand curves will do their thing and it will be an interesting time. Whether it will be economic warfare to own control of those dwindling fossil fuel resources, or all out shooting wars, we'll have to wait and see.

Lurker_2

re

Remember gasahol?

10 percent alc in gas, more likely than pure alc, same for heating oil, 10 percent would go a long way in the event of shortages.

Of course the only shortages are cash shortages, still plenty oil around, refiners playing games seems to be what keeps the price up these days

Bill Pidgeon_2

If you are talking about using hydrogen for transportation, the biggest problem, as far as I know, is the weight of a high pressure storage system, or the volume of a low pressure storage system. The Dept. of Energy says that the average car now has a range of 370 miles with a 20 gallon tank. None of the available storage systems will provide anything close to that range per volume or weight of the storage tank. See the following link for more info:

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/review04/st_1_miliken.pdf#search='hydrogen storage'

Constantin

Come on, JP...

... you know what I meant, don't you? :P

However, keeping the veggie oil happy is pretty simple, even if you're using an old truck to deliver it. Keep it warm enough to flow and it should thaw to room temp rather quickly.

If worst comes to worst, install a small unit heater around the oil tank takeoff, it's only flowing on the order of 1GPH, right? Keeping it warm inside the truck is easy as well, just line the tank with some resistance heaters or run the coolant circuit past the underside of the tank. Insulate, if need be, it's cheap.

Naw, there are much bigger questions that need to be answered, such as where all the renewable oil is supposed to come from. Consumption is so high, we'd probably have to start growing corn on flat roofs in cities! :-)