Please suggest boiler brands

Gene Davis_2

For staple-up hydronic radiant heat under the 2,200 sf main floor of a 1.5 story house. The 800 sf second floor will have electric baseboard heating. Our costs for electricity vary from 3.8 cents to 4.4 cents.

We've a moratorium on the use of electric boilers, thus we need to fire the boiler with LP or oil.

I'm aware of Buderus, but looking for other quality brands.

joel boucher

cheep juice

Holy smokes that is the cheapest elctric i have ever seen!!!!! With all the hoaky charges they add to the bill. ithink ipay like 12-14c a killowat! where in the countrty do you live? Viessmann makes my favorite oil boilers. they have 3 seperate boiler lines in a variety of sizes and 5 controll choices. With all radiant you want Viessmann as it can run at super cold temps and they have all the controlls you need.

Paul Mitchell_2

Energy Kinetics

Energy Kinetics System 2000. An EK-1 would probably do the trick. Best oil boiler on the market IMHO. and extremely quiet.
Paul

Al Gregory

Peerless or Weil Mclain,something cast iron and easy to get parts for, Every oil company in the country will have parts in their vans. Easyer on the wallet too.

Nick_13

Just curious

Paul, never heard of Energy Kinetics, probably b/c I live in the Adirondacks, and work for a big company whom only installs 2 brands, can you point me to where I can learn more about them?

Nick_13

I would definately have to disagree w/ Weil McLain, besides, what parts do you need for a boiler that you WOULD carry on a work van? Besides, most reputable heating companies carry parts for Carlin, Beckett, and Reillo burners,
I have seen numerous Weil McLain boilers split at the gaskets in the 3 years I have been in the field.

J.C.A._3

Nick,

They throw a lot of support to Oil Tech Talk. Give it a shot, I believe it appears when you click on the homepage. Chris

Ted_9

I agree the Energy Kinetics system 2000 is a good boiler but they are going radiant. Why not go with a Buderus or Viessmann since they are the most capable of handling the radiant. If price is an issue, Buderus is very competative. We are also offering this boiler http://www.macna-dedietrich.com/

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Al Gregory

In the 25 years I have been in the field I havent replaced 10% of the Weil Mclains as I have Burnahms in the past three years. Some people like Ford and some like Chevy

Ross_6

De-Dietrich Boilers

Ted,
Have you installed any of those De-Dietrich's yet? I was just curious how it went, and how well they run. We have a supply house that just started stocking them. I would like to spec them them out on some jobs, but would like to know how they are first.
Thanks, Ross

Ted_9

Very typical European oil fired boiler. Like a G115. If you go to the web site, you can download the installation instructions via PDF file.

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C Blake

Viessmann vs. System 2000 vs McClain

I am a homeowner in the Northeast (Mass). I need a new boiler. The original was put in in 1972 with the house. I want to get the most cost-effective boiler for the money. I have had estimates on Weil-MacClain, Viessmann, System2000.

I use fuel oil. I have a 2300 sq ft house with baseboard heating. The present boiler is a tankless Burnham unit.

At present I'm consuming 1250 gals per year of oil. Question: Which if these boilers will reduce my heating costs the most. I think the Viessmann controls will take into account the heat decay in the house when heating the oil, but the System2000 is supposed to be highly-trick and effective.

Any thoughts?

Charlie

Constantin

I'm partial to Viessmann...

... the Vitola and its control system have impressed and delighted me a great deal.

I would consider adding the Burnham MPO and Buderus G115/G215 to your list, which are also fine oil-fired choices.

Lastly, I would also consider switching from a tankless coil to an indirect tank with a large HX in it like the Phase III from Triangle-Tube (which is also private-labeled for WM, IIRC) or the Vitocell from Viessmann. That should reduce your oil consumption a great deal in the summertime.

Joe Brix

Your quotes

on Viessmann and System2000 must have indirects since they have no tankless option. If you wanted to cold start the boiler durring the summer just for the indirect, the System2000 is designed for that. You don't have radiant, so no low temp return. I couldn't justify the price of the Viessmann for your application. My choice for value on my BB system with indirect was a low volume steel Burnham LE with a Riello burner, Phase III indirect and Tekmar 260 boiler control. For the same price of the System2000, I also got a stainless steel liner for my chimney, a stainless steel indirect and a high tech boiler control that has more configuration options then sys2000's control.

joel_19

LE ?

for the price of an LE with reset you could of had a Viessmann !!! Remember they have three different residential boilers they are not all lots of money . personally i would not reset an LE we have customers that have them cold start that clearly condense we have cleaned plugged tubs in those that are full of cement like sulphur . if your reseting that you had better make sure the oil company actually opens it and cleans it out completly.

Joe Brix

I had space issues

so I needed top flue. My contractor priced it the same as a Peerless. A Buderus quote was much higher, so I'd assume a Vitrond would have been even more. I don't see why reset can't be used between 140-180°. I also was able to run the boiler at it's lowest firing rate and get priority out of the Tekmar 260 for the indirect. Even with the cold starting, the boiler is up to 160°+ in less then five minutes. How is this any different then a System2000?

Jed_2

Biasi...

Best Damned Bang for the Buck in the Industry.

Jed

Ted_9

Install

Ross, somehow I never saw your question. So I'm answering it correctly.

I have not installed one yet. But after talking to a friend in the business and going over the installation manual, I'm convinced its a great boiler and should be a part of our line up. I can see it as an alternate to the Buderus, that we mainly install.

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C Blake

Thanks for the replies - how important are the controls?

I've read the literature from system2000 about how they get all they can out of a gallon of oil, but the Viessmann appears to be "smarter". Will the controls on the Viessmann save oil over the efficient System2000? With indirect water heat shouldn't the System2000 be the boiler of choice, because of the need for cold start-up in the summer months for the indirect?

Constantin

I guess it depends...

... on the trade-off of the higher efficiency that the Viessmann is likely to offer on non-design-days and the shoulder season in particular (which is when a high-mass boiler is at an advantage when you can only avail yourself to single-stage oil burner) vs. the ability of the System 2000 to quickly heat during the summer for DHW. I guess it depends on how much the System 2000 short-cycles in the fall and spring, and what impact, if any, such short-cycling has on fuel effiency.

It also depends on the emitters, where large-mass heating systems won't suffer as quickly from the effects of a low-mass boiler being fired at only one output while attached to a baseboard or hydrocoil-only system. If it's integrated well, the rumored 2-stage Riello might make the low-mass System 2000 very attractive by improving its shoulder-season performance, particularly when it's coupled to a low-mass emitter system.

If you have AC, you can bypass the summer boiler performance issues simply by retrofitting a desuperator to pre-heat all your hot water. Jeff Lawrence's old home had such a system and the desuperator allegedly covered all the DHW demand all summer long.

Also remember that depending on the Viessmann you're considering that there are more things than just the controls that set it apart from the System 2000. At the end of the day, there are many systems out there, many of which occupy differentiated positions in the marketplace. It is up to you to determine which boiler/burner best fis the needs of your clients as none are perfect for all installation conditions.

Todd_11

Controls - IMHO

Make the boiler, foreget about the AFUE. Make sure you have a boiler that can be repaired easily, with standard,readily available, parts. The controls are what make the differance on ANY boiler(properly sized). Thats where all the "real" savings are.

Joe Brix

cold starting

doesn't need any fancy controls. Either the boiler can come up to temp fast or the boiler is so well insulated that in will hold heat between firings. In both cases your hoping there won't be any condensation producded to soot up or rot out the boiler. All the electronics can give you is outdoor reset, post purging into the indirect after a heat call is satisfied, priority when the tank calls for heat and maybe some control over a mixing valve to keep cooler return water from damaging the boiler.

So if all the electronics basically do the same thing, I would look for the best value system. How long will it take to payback the cost of a Viessmann that's twice as expensive as a Biasi or Burnham MPO (No, I don't have hard price lists, just generalizing here) if it's AFUE rating is only 1 or 2% better?

If I had a large home and burned 1,500 gal+ of oil a year it might be worth it, but for your average 1,500 sq ft house that burns 600-900 gal a year, why buy the most expensive boiler out there.

Constantin

Good Point

However, there are more benefits to various systems than just controls. For example, the vitola offers no limit on the return water temperature and can endure internal tank temperatures that would make other boilers rain with condensation. What about a flue temperature sensor, etc?

I would also argue that the Vitotronic can do a lot more than just post-purge, etc. For example, the 300 series Vitotronic can control the supply temperatures for up to 2 mixing valves, allowing up to 3 different heating temperatures in a heating system. It also intgrates outdoor reset, can control recirculation, etc. You can retrofit much of this functionality using a series of Tekmars, I suppose.

joel_19

Vitotronic

constantine , I find people do not take advantage of their controlls the way they should . the biggest thing they skip is to turn off the DHW at night ! You can set it back like a programable tstat . You can also program back the system water temps as well . I have a very well insulated tight small house 1900 sqft , 6.5 airchanges perday (tested with my blower door ). I had an 86% pin boiler when i switched to Viessmann oil with a reset controll . it did reduce oil consumption but better still was the comfort improvement that you can only get with a good reset set up.
Hey guys Look at the Viessmann vitorond 100 !!!!! or the 200 with a simple kw10 weather responsive controll not as much as you think esp the 100 !

Constantin

That's a very good point

The Vitotronic 200 and 300 controllers offer far more settings (100+) than perhaps most are willing to explore. When I came back from the Vitotronic traning course (THANK YOU, Jim McCarthy, Ed Nordstrom, Viessmann!), I immeadiately went to work. I was well-prepared since I had peppered Jim with questions during the class about every setting that I didn't understand right away...

I found most settings untouched, even the more important ones like curve slope. It is entirely possible that the contractor had intended to come back and do some more programming, but the unit had already been in place for a season at that point.

I have since put all the settings that are relevant to the Vitotronic in our setting (because it's adaptive) into a Word file that I can print as needed to review settings, etc. without having to work my way through all the settings in the book. I intend to leave a copy next to the boiler, along with a fuel usage and burner cycles chart.

Rich P.

How come nobody

Talks about how quiet, relaible, easy to service
System 2000 EK-1 with a stainless tank. Easiy replacable
flat plate exchanger. Also small foot print!!
Best all around value in my book!!

Rich P.

Rodney Summers

KE System 2000

There were some comments on another chat about the Kinetics Energy System 2000 having "board" problems. Do you know what is meant by the board .. is that the electronics? Anyone else know of reliability issues with the System 2000?

Nick L. in Vt

system two

great systems, easily maintained, very quiet, excellent support and factory training. BUT digital temp sensors bite the big one(boiler reverts to emergency high limit-not a catastrophic failure) and aviod antifreeze if possible but no more than 50/50 mix. hope this helps

Joe Brix

You also

have to be a dealer to sell one or get parts.

Mike E_2

Central Illinois even cheaper.

One of my friends lives down in Champagne Ill. They are paying 2.45 cents per KWH for space heating uses, and 3.5 cents for other uses.

S Ebels

FORGET BRANDS!!!!

Please read my post under the thread titled "Legal avenues for poorly installed system".

While there are significant differences depending on what type of boiler you select, the skill of the installer is something you never want to "save" money on.

Unknown

Joel

Just curious. Did any of these LE installations have the system bypasses installed that we so firmly specify in our manual? I somehow doubt it. It's always easy to make negative statements about things that happen in the field, but it normally has nothing to do with the boiler as I'm sure you are aware.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics