Transfer plate radiant ceiling retro fit

hr

I had a gob of Watts Radiant transfer plates left over so I thought.. I've always wanted to try a ceiling radiant. I primed the plates last weekend with Rustoleum aluminum primer.

Started at 8 AM, did the layout, drilled , and countersunk all the plates 24" oc. I used stainless grabbers into the old plaster board (not sheetrock) ceiling. Seems to hold very well.

Had all the plates in by 2:00 for @ 390 square feet. Started with 8" oc, then 12, then 16" in the center of the room. I used a block of wood to hammer in the Wirsbo Multi Cor PAP. I was wrapping up by 4:15.

Gonna try a Oventrop Unibox TRV and constant circ. Hope to get a small condensor soon to drive all my low temperature floors and ceilings.

Now I can sit in the easy chair and watch my ceiling heat :)

I gonna see if Dale could have the extruder push some 20 foot long plates! That would be a nice look in an exposed application like this. Maybe a nice anodized finish, while they are at the factory :)

hot rod

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Gordy

Performance

Just curious Hot Rod, what is your opinion on performance between the modern way of doing ceiling radiant with plates, verses embedded copper in plaster?
Gordy

jbplumber

garage

HR--Question. One of the complains we often hear in a fan forced heating system is the room above the garage is too cold. If one was to install transfer plates on the garage drywall ceiling (bear in mind that the joist spaces are insulated) Insulate the walls as required and the garage door with bubble wrap. How effective if any would it be to put a little heat in the garage and warm the upper room at the same time? Or would the uninsulated concrete floor rob all of the heat?. Thanks J.Lockard

Mark Eatherton1

Me thinks you got it backards HR...

I've been thinking about the typical patterns we use on RFH projects. Tighter centers near the outside wall and looser near the inside walls. We then pump the hottest fluid to the outside wall... I think that's backwards! I agree with delivering the hottest water to the outside wall, but I think that due to THAT fact, the spacing should be wider near the outside walls, and closer near the inside walls.

Counter intuitve, yes, but in my feeble minds eye, it makes sense...

If Mrs Rohr doesn't like the aesthetic appearance (but I'm POSITIVE she will) a person could cut filler strips of 3/4" sheet rock to fit between the plates, then run a final cover of 1/2" sheet rock over the whole thing. Not only would it ad o the flywheel mass effect, it would smooth out the final appearance.

Good days work my friend.

ME

Mike T., Swampeast MO

You Weren't Joking

When you said your goal was to heat every surface radiantly...

hr

ME

how about I pump the suply to the inside (wide) loop end first? Hottest water to the inside then cooler to the tighter spacing on the outside wall. It's just that my easy chair sits against the outside wall.

Well the little Miss-is wasn't overcome with joy. Said it felt like she was inside a broiler with the "look" of it I'm sure the paint will help!

It was late and she was a little edgey from an eight hour travel day. Maybe when she wakes up...?

Then again it isn't connected yet to "feel" the comfort.

hot rod

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hr

No question about

copper in anything, compared to an insulator like pex or EPDM.

I'm sure copper in plaster, concrete, transfer plates, suspended, etc is a better heat mover arounder

I posted the infard pics again below in the homeowner radiant post. It clearly shows the difference copper and or aluminim makes.

hot rod

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hr

R value roulette

Certainly heating the space below will help with the floors above. You do have a bit of R value between the ceiling sheetrock, the insulation, the plywood subfloor and coverings to feel much of that radiant warmth above.

I have a customer with an underperforming EPDM staple up (not my install thankfully) We have been tweaking it for two years now. We added staples to the sagging hose, added a second R-19 to the foil faced R-11. Boosted supply temp to a whooping 180, straight from the boiler. Original, Heatway design called for 171° supply!

We were at wits end, the bedroom would fall into the 60's as the temperature dropped into the teens. We finally had started a supplemental heat thought process.

This fall the owners decided to finish the basement below. It had radiant in the slab, never had been running. Basement ran mid 60°s. Low an behold raising the basement, under the cold bedroom, to 70 degrees put us over the edge. The homeowner called to pass on the good news! The bedroom maintained through the last single digit cold snap.

So any time you lessen that delta t, from warm space to cold space below, I would guess you help the room above. At least to my thinking.

Keep in ming garages, due to poorly fitting overhead doors, can be an energy hogs. Do all you can to tighten up before dumping the heat to 'er. Search for any weather stripping to seal aroung the garage door(s)

hot rod

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Uni R

Stamped Tin Panels

What about stamped tin panels? I'm not sure how to thermally connect them, but I'm sure you'd have a few methods.

hr

Uni-fins?

I had a friend stamp out a bunch of plates from old printing aluminum stack. Very thin material.

The gauge does matter for the heat conduction and spread across the fins surface area. Critical also if the tightness of the fit from the tube to the plate.

I use the analogy of a loose wire in a circuit breaker. You really want, NEEDF!, a good tight fit here considering the expansion movement of the pex's outer wall as the temperature swings.

That's the secret behind the Radiant Engineerings ThermoFin. Not only does the tube (if it is in spec) fit tighter, it STAYS tight due to the time and energy spend on shaping that extrusion. Compare the edge profile of T-Fin to ANY other extruded plate. That's the patten, not the aluminum material, but where and how it is used

The thickness in the correct spot, and the temper of the plate have a lot to do with the performance.

Plates that require silicone to hold the fit seem foolish to me.

hot rod

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Paul Pollets

UniBox notes...

Just a heads up HR, if you're doing 390SF of ceiling, you'll need to attach the UniBox to a 3 port manifold. If you're getting the device from Chris Rorke, He can send you a sketch or even over the phone. Keep loop lengths to a min. when using the UniBox.

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Kal Row

cool! - now tell us how you made it quiet?...

exp/cntr noise is a problem that always plagues ceiling radiant - otherwise i should be the best type,

i am strongly considering composite/aluminized radiant sub floor in the ceiling of my next one - not the ultra-heavy "Warmboard" but rather the lightweight stuff from Zurn - and then finish with 1/4" "Hardibacker" tileboard with smooth side down

why "tileboard" - cause if i want to run 60f water through it in the summertime for radiant cooling, i dont want to worry about moisture - of course you still need to dry the house with a fin coil device – but that can be done more efficiently with a low ton slow airflow unit, while the house is radiantly cooled from the pool, or well, or ground sourced liquid chiller

I haven tried this yet – I just hate to try new stuff on customers

Dale Pickard

Hot Rod

You are truly crazy! I showed my wife these photos and now she is afraid. She'll be off doing her globe trotting soon and she knows I have access to all of the extrusions my heart desires. Fortunately for her, I am much lazier than you and the dogs have been trained to distract me into other more redeeming (from their standpoint) pursuits usually involving XC skiing or frisbees or both.

Anyway, I've got to see you sell this to the architects. :-)

I don't see a lot of point in decreasing the tube spacing near the perimeter. I'd suggest an even spacing at something like 12" in this application. Then at most you'd need 2 loops, but I know you don't need any help with those aspects of design.

I regularly buy my greenhouse and glazing extrusions in 24' lengths. We've done the heat transfer plates in 12' lengths. Anything beyond 12' may produce some expansion "issues" which show up at the fasteners. We are now providing 4' and 8. We could provide whatever you want, including anodizing, on a special order. It would be neater looking, done in copper don't you think?

Dale

Dale Pickard

It would be fun to heat an old style, tin ceiling. It would be a challenge to do a good job of it. I'd be very concerned with temp uniformity and possible differential expansion issue. I think the heat source would have to be ducted hot air, possible produced by some dedicated hydronic air handlers in a closed loop. The hydronic side would allow modulation of the output with water temp.

But this is just so much compulsive engineering. Probably best to leave cool ceilings alone and put heat in such a room some other way. Like some cool period radiators.

Dale

hr

Dale

I actually had the copper tube and Curvo ready to go. I remember you telling me your experience with copper in long find arcing right off the floor when the temperature hit! i had visions of screws popping like buttons.

I figured the PAP would be a more mellow thermal transition. Although the constant circ and reset heat source show eliminate any wide rapid swings, regardless.

Frightened isn't a strong enough word for what my wife thought when she walked in on this, to my mind, "thing of beauty"

What an ideal way to SHOW potential customers how radiant heat works, I replied unsucessfully. Wait till she figures out the kitchen and dinning area ceilings are next on my hit list :)Time heals all, I'm told.

hot rod

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Weezbo

Yah Buddy !That says something *~/:)

and the home of the Brave
hot rod, the designe of a radiant hceiling under a radiant floor should be alot more balanced of an equasion than only radiant ceiling..here is my reasoning the close spacing above on the perimiter will likely correspond to a similar heat loss at the wall plates as it is more a matter of C value than R values. my transports down, and while the nash is looking sorta plausable and i have to thank the guys for thinking of me um...:)last night while waiting in the radiant ceiling heated bus station for a cab,after the Chinese New Year celebration at the university i happened to notice someting,.. well...wierdly...The two pannels on the outer most (length wise) short walls were cranking to beat the band,...the other 4 pannels that were located further up the scissiors cathedral ceiling/roof did not seem to even be Energised.....even though there is alot of glass on the bus "out post"/shuttel stop the heated air was hanging more to the higher side of the ceiling and while there is plenty of rational for heat loss through the glass( 35 below outside)to me the zoning idea was way missing a beat as it were...they were basically off and contributing diddly do to heating the area, as They were satisfied ,as it was like n~i~ce where They were living on the flat ceiling i can see this would likely not be quite as pronounced of an effect.
where i can see the idea working great is carrying the heat away from the ceiling and storing it and extending shoulder seasons :)oh...I like the way it looks now *~/:) i'm thinking Eagles by 4 ...radiant ceilings done every body amazed

Uni R

Radiant Tin Panels

Just have them stamped with the grooves for the pex on the back side. It could be tough connecting adjoining panels but there has to be some easy way to do it. With stamped panels coming back, this idea is possibly worth money. Or maybe another way is to run copper across the ceiling held with special clips and then these panels have special grroves on the back that clamp over the copper to hold it in place?

Ewan

PAP return bends

HR,
Just wondering how you formed the return bends with the MultiCor. Did you use anything special (i.e. conduit bender, REMS Curvo, bending form), or just by hand?

...wish my weekend projects progressed as quickly!

Jay_17

Radiant retrofit

This got me thinking, what are the options out there for a radiant ceiling retrofit? Our house needs a heating system on the second floor (2 family) since the old system has been removed. I had been planning on having baseboard installed but there are some problems with getting the pipes to all the rooms etc, now it occurs to me that piping for a radiant ceiling could go over the doors and would be simpler, also we have high ceilings so there is room to work with. The ceilings are plaster etc, some of them are not in great shape so I was considering taking them down anyway which would make it even more attractive.

Is there a system designed for this?
Jay