Homeowner with problems

Carpenter

I have been checking in to the Wall periodically to see if I could glean some wisdom about the mysteries of steam heat. I just ordered Dan's book package.

I have a two-family house. Grandad was a steam guy at GE and the system purred while he was alive. The heating and hot water system was run off a Burnham V-7 oil-fired boiler, which was replaced about 8 years ago when it started leaking.

The big water tank died, and we went with two direct-vented gas units, one per unit. At the same time, the gas co. offered free boilers for gas conversion, so we put the first-floor unit heat on a Burnham Independence.

The two units were on separate loops fed to the same boiler, and now they are on separate loops to separate boilers. I asked about sizing, and the plumber said they were fine.

We added one radiator to the first floor. We also added two radiators to the 3rd floor, because of a dormer addition I built. When the plumber was installing the new rads at the back of the house, he used copper and came off the main at the boiler.(nearpipe2a.jpg) I asked about steel, and he said they use copper all the time and it's fine.

Well, it's not fine.

Last year a joint blew in the copper and I had to fix it because he was too busy. (Brand new baby, mid-winter -- I was thrilled).

First floor: First there was gurgling, noisy rads, then rusty water spit out of vents. Replaced all vents. More rusty water. (See nearpipe1a.jpg)

Second/Third floors: Added two radiators, a third never got installed. (See mbrrad1.jpg) Replaced all vents. Noisy, gurgling, lots of hissing. The automatic water feed seems to go on a LOT more than it used to, and the water sometimes surges and sometimes the boiler cycles on and off fairly quickly (short-cycling?). Because of what I've read on the Wall, I'm afraid the frequent addition of water may have caused damage to the boiler (see fluvent2.jpg).

I called a guy to take a look at the install to see what it would take to fix it. He didn't like the near piping on the first-floor unit or the use of copper to the third floor radiators, and then when he saw the guy's sticker on the boiler he said, "He used to work for us." Never heard from him again. Next guy I called I explained the story and they never called back. I understand, having been in the trades, that when a job goes bad you want to get out fast, and that as the guy coming into a job it's tough to make the customer happy. That said, I still want to get the job done properly.

My boiler is scheduled for service later this month -- should I get them here sooner? What about damage to the chimney from steam -- given the rusty flue isn't that a likely problem?

I doubt that my boiler service contract covers any of this kind of damage. Any suggestions?

We're moving later this year -- I don't want to leave any problems for the next homeowner, so I'd like to get this taken care of soon.
Thanks.

Darin Cook_3

What is your location?







Darin

Carpenter

Lynn, Massachusetts

Mark Hunt

Well


the boiler is piped wrong, which you probably already know.

They tied a few dry returns together above the water line, there is no real equalizer and the system was probably never skimmed. Since they used copper, the boiler is probably coated with flux. Draining it won't get the flux out as it will just stick to the sections.

You mention that the boiler is feeding more water and those pictures of the flue indicate a crack in the boiler above the water line. You could check this yourself by filling the boiler all the way, but that doesn't always work either.

Did the installer happen to leave the Burnham literature there? The installation instructions clearly show how the boiler should have been piped.

Mark H

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Darin Cook_3

Why don't you contact

Scott Milne Milne P&H

Go to find a contractor at the top of the page and type in a 01944 zip code. That will give you his info. He is up in Manchester. Good Guy!






Darin

Carpenter

Manchester

Thank you -- I will give him a call.

Carpenter

Boiler piped wrong

Yes, the guy who looked at it, who used to employ the guy who did the install, told me there should be a header like on the other system. Reading "The Wall" was what prompted me to call in someone else because of the spitting from the radiators.

There are schematics in the Burnham book entitled "circulator zoned" and "zone valve zoned" but I frankly don't know how that works with a one-pipe gravity type system.

Mark Hunt

Ok



that is for water boilers, you have steam so it doesn't apply.

How often would you say that the boiler is adding water?

Did anyone check the boiler for a crack above the water line?

We had a similar situation just recently. Boiler was piped in copper and the water hammer was severe. When it fired up it surged worse than any boiler I had ever seen. The noise was unbearable for the homeowner. We ended up using a cleaning solution manufactured by Rhomar water called "Hydro-Solve". We re-piped the boiler with steel piping and added the Hydro-Solve and let the system run for a while. We returned and drained it and after re-filling we skimmed it and added more cleaner. One more return trip and the system had settled down and was operating quietly.

Skimming a boiler removes the junk that floats on top of the water like pipe dope and cutting oil. In your case you will have flux which is petroleum based. It prevents the steam from escaping easily and this is what causes the surging. Water is going into the steam piping and it is being pushed by the steam. When the water drop hits an elbow you get that distinct BANG! The dry returns that were tied together above the boiler water line are causing noise issues as well. Condensate is trying to return to the boiler on those lines, but steam is jumping between them and shoving the condensate backwards. More noise.

All of that can be fixed, but I am still concerned about the boiler that is adding more water. I'd definately have that looked at asap. The water has to be going somewhere, my guess is that it is going up the chimney in the form of steam.

Scott Milne is a good one to call.

Mark H

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Carpenter

Boiler adding water

Water is being added two or three times per boiler cycle, at least, lately. I can hear it as I lie in bed at night, since the wall by my head is directly above the boiler and the chimney runs there.

No one has checked for a crack. I have a service contract with Petro on the oil burner. They were out I think twice last year and both service guys mentioned that they wouldn't have used the copper, but no one mentioned a problem that I recall. Check that, one guy said he thought the header on the oil burner was maybe lower than it should be but it shouldn't cause any problems.

Recently I was working in the basement as the boiler was firing and thought I heard a steam hissing, but couldn't tell where from -- no visible steam.

I'm thinking now that it may have been going up the flue -- now that I see the rust and lime on the flue.

Thanks for your help.

Mark Hunt

I hope


it all works out well for you.

Mark H

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Carpenter

Thanks

Thank you, and thank Darin as well. I sent an e-mail to Scott Milne.

Thanks again.

Kyle Kubs - Benchmark Home Inspections

Insulation

Carpenter - It sounds like these other guys have you covered pretty well on the piping and such, just one more thing... Has anyone ever let you know that the insulation on the piping is asbestos? The pipes banging and surging makes this worse as it usually shakes the pipes and helps it become airborne... If your going to sell the house it will definetly become an issue of the inspection as well... - Good luck with everything...

ed wallace

steam problems

i am in watertown ma give me a call AT 617-923-6323

ScottMP

Mark and Darin

Thanks for the recomendation, I have recieved an e-mail from the owner.

Scott

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Carpenter

Thanks to everyone

Thanks for all your suggestions. They are most helpful. I've been in touch with Scott Milne by e-mail. Thanks one and all.

Carpenter

Service on Superbowl Sunday!

Ed Wallace came out and checked this system on Superbowl Sunday -- discovered the block is cracked and the pressuretrol was blocked, as well as a number of problems with the piping.

Also noticed that the knucklehead who took off the indirect water heater capped both ends of the coil! Plus the knucklehead left the temperature sensor hooked up! No wonder the boiler would randomly kick on during the summer! (Of course, I was used to that, since it did that with the water heater hooked up -- how would I know it's not supposed to?)

Ed Wallace could very well have saved our lives! Thanks Ed!

Leo

Staying warm

Having a boiler that stays warm in the summer is a good thing with oil. You would agree if you cleaned them. The small amount used in oil offsets potential service calls.

Leo

Mad Dog

Ed? why don't you get listed on Find A Pro????????????????????

You seem like a nice AND knowledgeAble guy....and it's only fair when other guys are paying for it. Respectfully, Mad Dog

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Carpenter

Summertime run

So how do you get the boiler to run in the summer -- go back to the indirect water heater?

Leo

It is the type of control that maintains a low temperature limit.

Leo