engineering report on my house, hydronic, radiators, furnace(s)

Eugene

Hello all!

I bought a new house in October and when the cold weather set in, I realized the house had terrible heating problems. Some details of the house:

1. 4500 Sqft on three floors

2. 57 windows and 13 doors to the outside (all of them leaky)

3. Weil McClain oil-fired hot water boiler with 157,000 bth/h net (181M input)

4. 6 heating zones, 2 zones of indirect hot water (40 gals each).

5. Radation. How to describe. Imagine taking apart a baseboard radiator and lowering the pipe into a trench in the wood floor. But instead of fins, it has pins touching the pipe and a wrap-around wire mesh to protect the pins. Then, a metal grate lays flush on the wood floor to protect the radiator in the trench. Because the house has 13 doors, many of this style radiator is necessary since one does no want to trip over a baseboard to get through a door!

6. house located near new york city - so it gets cold!

7. House has both natural gas and oil tank, gas is currently only used for cooking, but there is a big gas pip run into the furnace room in the basement for future use if I needed.


Comfort details:

1. When the outside temp is 30 or above, inside temp is ok,can set most zones to reach 70F.

2. When outside temp is 20 or below, I have part of my first floor can't get about 50F. Master bedroom cant get above 65F, other areas have problems as well.


First thing I did was replace the single taco 007 (equivalent) circ pump running all 8 zones (using 8 zone valves) with 4 taco 007 pumps running 2 zones each. This helped a bit. I noticed that some grates (radiators) were hotter than they used to be. I also increased the hi temp to 200. This also helped a bit. I replaced about 15 windows in the house and this also helped, but not enough!

Got an engineer in and he reported the following:

1. FURNACE: house's heat loss (based on NEW windows and 0F outside and 70F inside) was 250MBTU/h. So he indicated that the furnace was not properly sized. He offered several approaches. a) add a second furnace of 100Mbtu/h and run 3 zones of heat off this one. 2) get a separate gas (I also have gas in the house) hot water heater. 3) replace my current furnace with a 250btu/hour.

Here's my first questions (i bet you thought it would never come!):

A. should I get gas furnace for the second furnace?

B. Instead of splitting the zones between the two furnances, would I be better of using 1 furnace during mild weather and 2 during cold weather (ie some automatic way to do this). I have read on the "find a contractor" section on this site that this can be done. And if so, which furnace should be oil and which should be gas (or should they both be oil). By "which" I mean the one that always runs vs. the one that runs only on the coldest days?

C. should I convert them both to gas?! Does anyone know definitively if a btu (therm?) of gas costs more/less than a btu of oil? If someone could give me the forumla I could probably plug in the numbers. Afterall, oil and gas prices change frequently. But if I had a formula I could figure it out.


2. RADIATION:

Engineer confirmed my fear that there is not enough linear feet of this radiation in the rooms to support the rooms. He estimated that a standard baseboard (slantfin 80?) might put out 2wice the heat than the kind I currently have for the same footage.

For the most part, he has recommended adding slant fin radiators on walls that dont have any radiation, but this looks like a lot of work (read cost) because floors and ceilings and walls might need to be opened to do all this.

Next set of questions:

A. Is there ANY possibility that I might try to do the furnace first, to see if that helps any? And then wait before embarking on the radiation?

B. Or conversely, should I do the radiation first to see if that helps?

C. Or do I simply need to do them both and bite the bullet (or take a bullet so my wife can collect insurance and pay for the work!)


Also, my mother made an interesting suggestion. The two rooms that are the coldest are the downstairs office and directly above this, the master bedroom. Both of these have wood burning fireplaces. My mother suggested I put gas units in these fireplaces (you know, so you can have a nice fire without the mess and hassle of wood) and that might help things. I thought that its not a bad idea, but that I thought that this is probably not a cost effective way to heat the room. The fireplaces look nice but probably dont give off as much heat as a furnance would using the same amount of gas. THOUGHTS?

any way, thank you all for taking the considerable time to read this email. And I appreciate any and all comments/questions.

Eugene

Mike Reavis_2

Whoa, Eugene!

> Hello all!

>

> I bought a new house in October and

> when the cold weather set in, I realized the

> house had terrible heating problems. Some details

> of the house:_br_ 1. 4500 Sqft on three

> floors_br_ 2. 57 windows and 13 doors to the

> outside (all of them leaky)_br_ 3. Weil McClain

> oil-fired hot water boiler with 157,000 bth/h net

> (181M input)_br_ 4. 6 heating zones, 2 zones of

> indirect hot water (40 gals each)._br_ 5.

> Radation. How to describe. Imagine taking apart a

> baseboard radiator and lowering the pipe into a

> trench in the wood floor. But instead of fins, it

> has pins touching the pipe and a wrap-around wire

> mesh to protect the pins. Then, a metal grate

> lays flush on the wood floor to protect the

> radiator in the trench. Because the house has 13

> doors, many of this style radiator is necessary

> since one does no want to trip over a baseboard

> to get through a door! _br_ 6. house located

> near new york city - so it gets cold!_br_ 7.

> House has both natural gas and oil tank, gas is

> currently only used for cooking, but there is a

> big gas pip run into the furnace room in the

> basement for future use if I

> needed._br_

>

> Comfort details:_br_ 1. When the

> outside temp is 30 or above, inside temp is

> ok,can set most zones to reach 70F._br_ 2. When

> outside temp is 20 or below, I have part of my

> first floor can't get about 50F. Master bedroom

> cant get above 65F, other areas have problems as

> well._br_

>

> First thing I did was replace the

> single taco 007 (equivalent) circ pump running

> all 8 zones (using 8 zone valves) with 4 taco 007

> pumps running 2 zones each. This helped a bit. I

> noticed that some grates (radiators) were hotter

> than they used to be. I also increased the hi

> temp to 200. This also helped a bit. I replaced

> about 15 windows in the house and this also

> helped, but not enough!

>

> Got an engineer in and

> he reported the following:_br_ 1. FURNACE:

> house's heat loss (based on NEW windows and 0F

> outside and 70F inside) was 250MBTU/h. So he

> indicated that the furnace was not properly

> sized. He offered several approaches. a) add a

> second furnace of 100Mbtu/h and run 3 zones of

> heat off this one. 2) get a separate gas (I also

> have gas in the house) hot water heater. 3)

> replace my current furnace with a

> 250btu/hour.

>

> Here's my first questions (i bet

> you thought it would never come!):_br_ A. should

> I get gas furnace for the second furnace?_br_ B.

> Instead of splitting the zones between the two

> furnances, would I be better of using 1 furnace

> during mild weather and 2 during cold weather (ie

> some automatic way to do this). I have read on

> the "find a contractor" section on this site that

> this can be done. And if so, which furnace should

> be oil and which should be gas (or should they

> both be oil). By "which" I mean the one that

> always runs vs. the one that runs only on the

> coldest days?_br_ C. should I convert them both

> to gas?! Does anyone know definitively if a btu

> (therm?) of gas costs more/less than a btu of

> oil? If someone could give me the forumla I could

> probably plug in the numbers. Afterall, oil and

> gas prices change frequently. But if I had a

> formula I could figure it out._br_

>

> 2.

> RADIATION:_br_ Engineer confirmed my fear that

> there is not enough linear feet of this radiation

> in the rooms to support the rooms. He estimated

> that a standard baseboard (slantfin 80?) might

> put out 2wice the heat than the kind I currently

> have for the same footage.

>

> For the most

> part, he has recommended adding slant fin

> radiators on walls that dont have any radiation,

> but this looks like a lot of work (read cost)

> because floors and ceilings and walls might need

> to be opened to do all this.

>

> Next set of

> questions:_br_ A. Is there ANY possibility that

> I might try to do the furnace first, to see if

> that helps any? And then wait before embarking on

> the radiation?_br_ B. Or conversely, should I do

> the radiation first to see if that helps?_br_ C.

> Or do I simply need to do them both and bite the

> bullet (or take a bullet so my wife can collect

> insurance and pay for the work!)_br_

>

> Also, my

> mother made an interesting suggestion. The two

> rooms that are the coldest are the downstairs

> office and directly above this, the master

> bedroom. Both of these have wood burning

> fireplaces. My mother suggested I put gas units

> in these fireplaces (you know, so you can have a

> nice fire without the mess and hassle of wood)

> and that might help things. I thought that its

> not a bad idea, but that I thought that this is

> probably not a cost effective way to heat the

> room. The fireplaces look nice but probably dont

> give off as much heat as a furnance would using

> the same amount of gas. THOUGHTS?

>

> any way,

> thank you all for taking the considerable time to

> read this email. And I appreciate any and all

> comments/questions.

>

> Eugene

Mike Reavis_2

Whoa, Eugene!

You live in a barn, or what? You are in the 50+btu per sq ft range. Things are probably even worse if these floors are stacked on top of each other. My advise is to grab your equity and move.

If this is not an option then think about either getting your current engineer to show you with his heat-loss program as to what you need to do structurally to cause your house with its current boiler to warm the occupants sufficiently. If he can't do this, then find a contractor here who can be paid to perform this function. If you try to heat your house in its current condition you will go broke from the expense, and you will endanger your health.
Mike

Weezbo

There are alot of minor technicalities here.....

I am inclined to suggest that you get a second opinion on the existing structure... this time by a professional systems installer. You need to find someone close by to deal with who you will likely have to free up a few dollars for his physical presence .next stop ,an insulation contractor,same deal. then a General contractor . Now you have learned how difficult just dealing with that was,step back away from it and consider,do i want to spend time doing what i do or trying to figure out how these people are doing what they do? ...If the answer is i think it is best to get some help with this then let the general act as an over seer it will reduce alot of stressing on your part.he can figure scheduling and staging and what not and remove and replace things to facilitate the completion of the project...thats my take on a home of 4500 sq ft per floor.

Eugene

oops small correction

I might have misled you about the size of the house! Its a total of 4500 sqft! Each floor is about 1500 sqft! Sorry for the confusion!

I spent $1,000 for the engineer which I think is a good price. I had other engineering estimates as high as $3500 (for just the calculations and drawings where to put radiators, etc). The guy did a decent job, its just now to figure out how much of his proposal MUST be done and hoe much can be postponed or not done. Or if there is a more fuel efficient way to get things done (ie using the 2nd boiler on colder days). Or if my engineer is crazy!

Lastly, yes. I do think a GC is the way to go. I have no interest in learning about how to manage this because I am unlikly to ever use that knowledge ever again!

Eugene
THANK YOU ALL !

Eugene

whoa indeed!

Mike, thank you very much for taking the time to read my post and thanks for taking the time to reply. I must admit, I don't fully understand your recommendation (although I do understand the selling part of it!)

You noted below that I should ask the engineer what I can do, "...structurally to cause your house with its current boiler to warm the occupants sufficiently." What do you mean by that exactly? Truth is, the house is like a barn because with 57 windows and 13 doors, there is a lot of glass (and right now its all single pane!)

At one time, another engineer (very well respected in my town) not the one I hired, told me that older houses typically have a loss of 40-60 btu/sq ft and newer construction with good windows have typical heat losses of 25-35 btu/sqft. So my house (1963) with 55 doesnt seem totally outa whack considering all the windows, no?!

But I am very interested in your opinion.
thanks again
eugene

Weezbo

I type slow ...

and it took me a while to do .so please think twice and meditate on the meaning because realization comes often too late.your own experience to date must be assuring you that there is a right way to go about the project.

Constantin

Your post raises a lot of questions...

For one, you seem to be living in a very well-fenestrated home... plus one with more doors that you can shake a stick at... plus, you seem to lack any and all insulation, considering the rather ridiculous heat loss your engineer is proposing.

Rather than replace a boiler, add a boiler, or whatever, I would go to energystar.gov and hire an environmental testing company to figure out what your heat loss is, where infiltration is occuring, etc. They'll then give you lots of insight into how to better insulate the place, where to stop leaks, etc.

I would insulate your home walls, attic, and basement to reduce heat transfer. Icynene and dense-pack cellulose can be applied from the inside via 2" holes in each stud bay. Either will dramatically reduce your heat loss, we went from 25BTU/(Degree Day x ft²) to just over 5... To put it into your perspective, that's a reduction from about 57BTU/ft² to 12 BTU/ft² on a design day.

Next, I'd address the infiltration, wherever it occurs. Quality storm windows (Harvey Tru Channel, for example) are inexpensive, help preserve historic glass and are very infiltration-resistant. Exterior doors deserve gasketing and a storm door as well. Once infiltration and heat loss are under control, your extant heating system should be more than adequate to heat the place without any changes beyond what you have done already.

Save your money for the insulation, not a new heating system. You need the former, not the latter. Lastly, fireplaces are classic heat leaks in homes... about 6kBTU each on cold days. If you don't have a very good flue damper, consider retrofitting a proper damper like the Lymance or Locktop from Homesaver.

Chuckles_3

I'll make a suggestion regarding the radiation. Look at panel radiators, e.g. from Runtal (google it). They sit almost flush with the walls (2" thickness) and can put out a lot of BTU without taking up all the edge space like baseboards. Of course they add a modern touch to an old house, which may be undesirable, but so do baseboards.

As for the rest of it, I am not an expert but I think the heat loss calculation is too high. Heat loss calculations are almost always too high. Existing boilers are almost always too large, it is possible that your boiler was undersized but it's not likely. I have a 1920's house (admittedly insulated and tightened up over the years) and it needs 30 BTU/sq ft. You should be able to get there, if you are not there already, by replacing windows and adding storm doors and etc.; this is very worthwhile and also politically correct.

Eugene

good points

I agree with the insulation issue. There are some walls that feel cold. The house was gutted and totally rebuilt and added onto in 2000. I was *told* by the owner who did it that they insulated and vapor barriered. One area that was easy to check was the 3rd floor crawl space and saw very new, and thick insulation along the entire roof. I was also able to get under the two sides of the house (crawl spaces) and they are both very well insulated. The main central part of the house has a finished basement (additional to the 4500 sqft, but we keep the heat off down there, it never gets below 70 in the basement even with the heat off!) But I do think you are right, the older part of the house probably needs some more blown in.

Engineer said that the heat loss calculations were based on new marvin low-e argon filled windows for 57 windows. I just spent $20,000 doing about 20 of the 57 windows using these marvin replacement windows. They do not come with storms, but I think they are engineered to not need them (I don't really know. I defer to you guys). I will tackle the other windows next year and the year after. Truth be told, I will probably not ever recoup the cost of the windows in saved fuel, but I did it for the quality and hopefully a little more resale value when I sell it.

The fireplace damper issue is a good point. I will certainly investigate that. House has 3 fireplaces, so right there, perhaps I'm losing 18,000 btu!? They do have dampers and they are closed, but they are probably inadequate.

thanks for the input. much appreciated.

Constantin

Consider...

... storm windows are usually much less expensive than new ones. Plus, their combined performance with the old glass is usually close to the performance of new double-pane windows. Something on the order of 30-40 storms was quoted to me as USD9K installed. In other words, you can save a lot of money and fuel simply by switching to efficient storms instead of new Marvins.

While the new windows in our home are top-of-the-line Marvin units, a lot of their performance has to do with how they were installed. Some of ours weren't shimmed correctly at the time of installation, now we have to come back to that as I could see past the sash in several of them. Considering how little tolerance there is (like 1/16th of an inch) between a good, even install and a leaky one, I would use a blower test to see which windows pass the test and which don't.

Lastly, just because you see insulation doesn't indicate that the suff was actually installed properly. Fiberglass allows rapid air movement, dense-pack cellulose and in-situ applied foam do not. Infiltration is easily 20% of a heating load, so I'd go about that basement and crawlspace and seal it according to the recommendations at Buildingscience.com. Plus, you seem to be losing a significant amount of heat from the distribution piping down there.

Eugene

great, thank you for these ideas. Will check it out! One comment, I would have gone with storms, but most of the windows were casements, and I would have needed them on the inside of the window, which is doable. I replaced the casements with double hung because they were cheaper and I think they are more convient to operate (ie screens and such) Just my opinion.
thanks again

Eugene

very interesting post. I checked out these runtal radiators and they seem very good. I do think, however, my wife might not go for 'em. However, you got me 'ta thinkin. One of the original bathrooms in the house (1962) has what my engineer called, a "cabinet radiator." Its mounted to the wall (actually I think its partly recessed into the wall), it stands about 3 feet tall and has an opening at the bottom and slots on the top. I was wondering if there were other manufacturers of "Wall" radiators other than runtal that might have a more tradition looking wall unit?

What about cast iron? There are a few spots where I could add a cast iron radiator that would take up less length but could fit? One thought is by the bath tub for example. Also, I find these radiators useful because you can put a shelf on the top and now you have a place to put some nick nacks or somthing (nothing meltable, of course).

Any way, thanks again!

singh

If basement never goes below 70*
Perhaps you should check to see if heating pipes are insulated as well.
This may help with greater delivery of heat to where you need it the most, upstairs.

Eugene

yes! Excellent point. The heating pipes are NOT insulated! That I have confirmed by what I can see in the basement and in the attic crawl space. This is an option I can add to the contractors project if I want to open walls and everything, which I might have to do if I need more radiation. Thank you for bringing this up

Wayco Wayne_2

A Blower door test

is in order. Also an infra-red scan on a cold night would tell a lot too. Identify the enemy... and then attack. Woops sorry, I just had a flashback. But seriously, those 2 tests will tell you lots. I like Constantines ideas about the storm windows too. WW

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Have you done a thorough and complete cleaning of your radiators?

Given the construction you describe, they're certainly BIG dirt/dust/junk collectors. Get a lot of accumulated stuff around something designed to convect and you'll cut output significantly.

How old is the house?

While I'm not familiar with convectors of that construction, if the house is from around the turn of the 20th century, and the original builder wealthy and concerned about "vitiated" air, there might be connections to those recessed boxes to the great outdoors. See any evidence of such?

Nothing at all from the previous owners regarding heating operation?

Can you measure the temperature drop across some of the radiators (include ones in underheated as well as relatively well-heated areas) when the boiler is running? If so, let us know the numbers.

don_52

Floor Convectors

Eugene,

Do your floor rads look anything like the attached
photo? If so you may be able to have them retrofit
will new elements with a better output capacity.
The Slant Fin h1 and h3 come to mind, funny the
engineer didn't mention that, oh well?
I only mention this as a "partial solution" to throw
into the mix of options availiable.

Best of Luck

Eugene

Wow. No, mine don't look like this. Its the same concept, but I dont have good fins, I simply have something that looks like rolling chicken wire around the pipe to make it about 3" in diameter (loose chiken wire with some pins eminating out from the copper pipe)

But this is very very interesting to me. I really do wonder if I could replace what I have with something like this, it might make a very significant difference, and perhaps it would involve some less construction! VERY INTERESTING! I will check into this. VERY EXCELLENT LEAD! THANK YO

Chuckles_3

Chuckles_3

> At one

> time, another engineer (very well respected in my

> town) not the one I hired, told me that older

> houses typically have a loss of 40-60 btu/sq ft

> and newer construction with good windows have

> typical heat losses of 25-35 btu/sqft. So my

> house (1963) with 55 doesnt seem totally outa

> whack considering all the windows, no?!


These numbers are OK for estimating how much radiation you need, because having excess radiation is a Good Thing (it allows you to run with cooler water which improves efficiency). But these numbers are way way high for actual heat loss. New construction should be 10-15 and old 25-35. As everybody has suggested, it is better to stop the losses than to keep pumping heat into this house.

Chuckles_3

how to tell if boiler is too small

As you see, people here will react negatively to "get a bigger boiler" type suggstions, because so many hacks use this as a solution to everything. If only some rooms are cold, you don't know if it is a distribution problem or a boiler problem.

It is easy to see if the boiler is too small. On cold days, does your boiler run full blast, all the time? I don't mean whether the thermostat calls for heat all the time, because presumably it does, and I don't mean the circulators. Are the boiler's burners on all the time? That's a different thing. If the flame is not on all the time, but the upstairs rooms are still cold, it's a distribution problem, not a boiler size issue. The boiler is big enough to heat the water without running all the time, so it's big enough.

Another way to get the same information is: how hot does the water get (in cold weather)? If it reaches the setpoint, your boiler is not too small. In fact you have said that you raised the water temperature, and it helped. This tells me that your boiler is big enough. If it were too small, it would never be able to reach the set temperature (that's why your rooms would be cold), and in that case increasing the setpoint would make no difference.

Paul Mitchell_2

First step

I would do would be to install a second boiler...gas or oil...make the system operate as you were suggesting. Use a tekmar control to stage in the new boiler based on outside temp and return water temp. Cant get better than that. I would do this first and then see how it goes. You could always add radiation if need be. And as far as the fireplaces go...good idea for visual effect but not very efficient. The old gas co would love ya.

don_52

Sorry Eugene....

> Wow. No, mine don't look like this. Its the same

> concept, but I dont have good fins, I simply have

> something that looks like rolling chicken wire

> around the pipe to make it about 3" in diameter

> (loose chiken wire with some pins eminating out

> from the copper pipe)

>

> But this is very very

> interesting to me. I really do wonder if I could

> replace what I have with something like this, it

> might make a very significant difference, and

> perhaps it would involve some less construction!

> VERY INTERESTING! I will check into this. VERY

> EXCELLENT LEAD! THANK YO

don_52

Sorry Eugene....

Forgot to post the link;

http://www.reggioradiator.com

Oh yeah, the first step is to clean and flush the
system with Rhomar Water's Hydrosolve 9100, could
have lotsa shmootz in there.

Folks that have used the product swear by it and so
do I. Their link is under 'virtual Trade Show" in the
upper left sidebar.

That's a cheaper "first step" than installing another
boiler post haste.

Regards,

Constantin

I disagree...

The issue is not the size of the boiler, IMHO, it's the excessive heat loss or the inadequate distribution system that is not moving the heat to where it needs to be. 50 BTU/ft² is the problem, not the boiler.

I would fix the heat loss rather than the heat generation equation, unless you enjoy paying $$$ for a new heating system and then paying additional $$$ heating a house with excessive heat loss. I'd put the money towards better insulation, then enjoy the energy savings every year.

Go to energystar.gov to schedule a blower test and to get good insulation advice. Then seal, test, seal, etc.

Paul Mitchell_2

I agree with you but

since I would guess he needs alot of work to upgrade the homes insulation etc. I would install the second boiler to help out while he is in the process. At normal temps he is heating it is just those real cold days. I dont feel this would be wasting money because eventually he would have a system that could be energy saving with the proper controls.

Eugene

this is a good question. Generally speaking the boiler does in fact get up to 200F and then shuts off. It takes about 3-4 mminutes before it turns back on again. I definitely think I have several problems:

1. Insulation and inflitration. Everyone is correct here. I will work on this

2. radiation. no question.

3. Boiler


My question is this. Lets say I update my radiators. I think then it is very possible that the furnace may stay on all the time whereas now it turns on and off. I think my radiation is so poor that the furnace can maintain temp properly.

You know, the more I think about this, I think that when the engineer was involved that designed the heating system the first time around, I think that perhaps the radiation and the furnace are probably matched properly to eachother. I just think that they are BOTH inadequate based on the heat loss. The engineer originally probably miscalculated that part of it. The rest he probably did right. He probably figured I need 157,000 btu/h and specd out a furnace that size and specd out enough radiation for that too. But now we know they are just both inadequate.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Not to Harp

But have you thoroughly cleaned those radiators?

Constantin

Good observation

If the boiler shuts down because it hits the high limit, your problems lie not with the boiler but with either the distribution system or the emitters. One of the two latter ones is lacking, otherwise that boiler wouldn't hit high limit (it wouldn't be able to keep up with the BTU loss).

I don't think it's necessarily the fault of the radiators either. You might find that someone installed a ridiculous pumping system that is prone to fail you when you need it most. How about drawing a diagram of the pumps, pipes, etc. with radiators. We may find yet that some simple changes may make your heating system far more capable at getting the heat to where it is needed.

Insulating the basement and/or the pipes is a worthwhile first step. Also insulate the ceiling down there, to reduce infiltration.

Constantin

But Paul...

... the boiler is hitting the high limit already and doesn't come on for four minutes between cycles (see Eugene's post further on down).

To me, that is a prime indication that the boiler is not the limiting factor here. Either the radiation emitters or the distribution system is not up to snuff. I suspect the latter.

Between repiping for good flow and (at the very least) insulating the piping in unoccupied spaces, the emitters should get a lot hotter and hence drop far more heat into the house, thus allowing the boiler to run continuously on design-days.

Ken_8

Eugene,

I too am 30 minutes from NYC.

Exit 135, GSP. If I'm close, give me a shout. I teach heat load school for the I=B=R!

For a modest fee, I'll hook you up with absolute numbers.

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Chuckles_3

> probably figured I need 157,000 btu/h and specd

> out a furnace that size and specd out enough

> radiation for that too. But now we know they are

> just both inadequate.


Yeah, well, that's not a bad ballpark estimate for the heat loss of a typical old house of this size. If you take care of the insulation and doors and windows, maybe both the radiation and the boiler will be correctly sized and you will have solved your problem. But also consider Constantin's suggestion about studying the distribution system.

Weezbo

Eugene, may i suggest another idea *~/:)

it is not unheard of to have a distribution system the "matched" to a boiler and yet still have it not actually distribute those available BTU's to where they need to go. yeah, maybe they head into the home buh thats where the minor technicalities come into play....
on some older homes made awhile ago, there were areas say that were,... marginal, at best and other areas... how to say this...over balanced. these zones are able to distribute more btus than the area needed and there was a bit of crossed eyes and finger crossing that the home owner would simply turn these zones up a notch to compensate...there is another distinct possibility the convectors are in need of being cleaned as Mike suggested....both of these "fixes" are possibly something that you could live with....the windows likely helped a group...one very different idea that i have is,.. do you have a vapor barrier on the ground in the crawl space? and has there been any up grades on IAQ?...

Paul Mitchell_2

I did not

see that part of the post. I agree then. Another boiler would not help.

Constantin

Not to worry...

... Eugene didn't post that info until later in the game. But that is why we need to ask questions like what are the cycling habits of the boiler before coming to a conclusion about a heating system problem. It's a neat puzzle, and a great educational experience.

I suspected that the boiler was not the issue as our house is about the same size, used to also have no insulation, and used to be heated fine by a 83% Williamson monster air furnace with a 200kBTU input rating under very similar environmental conditions...

Anyway, my bet is on insulation and repiping as most rooms probably have adequate emitters in them. Once distribution is fixed, I'd start to focus on insulating the place according to helpful ideas for cold-climate building at buildingscience.com

jerry scharf_2

floor convector thought

Eugene,

Most of what I would have contributed has been said by others. Getting bigger boilers and turning up the water temps are bandaids that often don't solve the problem.

A blower door test seems like an important next step, and finding out where that 70F basement is getting it's heat also is an important thing to follow up. There have been a couple threads about insulation recently. The quality of the job is in the selections and in the details. I work with the rule of thumb number that a 5% void in the insulation produces a 50% resuction in the surface's net insulation. Also, as Constantin pointed out, insulation that stops airflow is critical. Foam applied in place and dense pack cellulose are the two best things for that. Each has it's goods and bads.

I had one thought on those floor convectors. Any chance you can take the cover off a couple and post some digital pictures? In particular, I want to make sure that there is a vertical panel about 1/4 of the way from one long wall and that the heating part is under the wider part. For these to work, you need to have a air source and a chimney. That divider is what produces the two parts. Without it, the air doesn't flow and since it's buried in the floor, the output of the convector is just about zero. Someone may not have understood how they worked and removed it. Also, frequent vacuuming is mandatory on these, since it's easy to get dust and dirt down there and their output can drop rapidly.

good luck,

jerry

Eugene

HERE ARE PHOTOS OF THE RADIATORS

hello all, thanks again for all the tremendous thought you guys are putting in on my behalf on this problem. I am learning lots from these posts. Several of you have asked for photos of the radiators, and here they are! Please note. There are two different radiator pictures. One is a "double radiator" which means pipe comes in, turns around 180 degrees (angle not temp) and goes back to where it came. Idea being to get 2wice the linear feet in the same linear area, but 2wice the width. The other is a standard radiator.

Please note that the radiator is sitting directly on top of a copper pan. The copper pan is roughly 1.5x the width of the radiator. THERE ARE NO BAFFLES to allow convection!
Let me know if there are any questions.

by the way, the double radiator depicted here is about 24" long. This is the ONLY radiator in a room that is about 11x13 in size.

Also, for example, the master bedroom has about 15 feet of this stuff (single radiator) and the total sqft of the master is about 355. thanks again

Eugene

I do have insulation under the crawl space (I had that done when I first moved into the house. Also added pipe insulation for the hot water pipes there. Vapor barier added to the whole thing at the end.

I would be able to turn down some of the ball valves for hotter zones to help get more heat to the colders zones, unfortunately, other than the basement, I dont have any zones that work well. Which means that on days less than 30F, they almost never get to 68F. Or if they do, it takes a while. I would love to do nigh-time set backs, but if I did the house would take 2 days to get back to 66 or 67. Luckily we had a nice warm weekend.

Eugene

Bob Morrison_3

Amazing (Bob M)

Eugene,

I have never seen such curious (and inadequate) heat emitters. Standard residential finned tube radiation (baseboard)lengths are estimated at about 510 BTUh/LF (at 180 F entering temperature)- the heat loss rate for the room would be divided by this number to obtain the design length of the finned tube for the room. A good installer for this type of house would install at least this length.

I have no idea how to estimate the output of your "custom fabricated" equiment. As you note, there is no means for room air to convect through it. Also, the strange chicken wire fins would not be expected to be effective.
I would replace all of this "stuff" as a first step to correcting the heating problem. The panel radiation idea above is a good one.
Also, I would use that bullet that you mentioned above on your house inspector or realtor - whichever you can find first. Then get a second bullet.

Bob Morrison

steve_82

emitters

It's hard to see in your photos, but does the "chicken wire" surround a brush-like arrangement of pins/wires that radiate out from the pipe?

When I installed FHW heat in my house about 10 years ago I briefly considered using some brush-like, "porcupine" elements that were available at the time. They put out much more heat per foot than conventional fin tube elements. I believe that I first heard of this type of fin tube on This Old House. I tried a Google search to see if this type of fin tube is still available, but didn't find anything.