Steam problem with two rooms

Dave Meers

Hi,

What do you mean when you say you re-piped the radiators that you found trapped? Did you find pipes that were plugged and then replaced them? Did you use the same pipe sizes and pipe pitches? Have you inspected the traps to check for dirt/debris? It sounds like you have done a lot of work in a short amount of time. Sometimes this frees up the rust/scale/dirt in the system, which deposits then in some unusual places, like the body of a trap.

Just some places to start. Let us know.

Best regards, Pat

Jwheat

two rooms not heating

We have a steam system in DC that is having trouble with two radiators in seperate rooms. Some background on the job. We replaced all the steam traps in the house, was never done many radiators were not heating at all. We also replace the boiler. This house had a serious water hammer problem and we install an F&T trap on the back of the house main because there was not one there. The water hammer is gone, even though the front house main still has a direct connection to the wet return without an trap. These two radiators we found trapped lines to and figured they were not draining the water because of that. We repiped the returns on each radiator and fired the system up. WORKED FOR THREE DAYS, then radiators filled with water, seems that radiators get hot on the top water condences and does not drain out of the radiator fast enough. Both radiators are on the back side of the house but in differant areas. The house has a rear main and a front main. Every other radiator in the house is working fine. Any Ideas, I am at a loss.

Steamhead

That F&T trap you put in

may be part of the problem. Some Vapor systems (I'm sure that's what you have) used them, others did not. If you've created a situation where the condensate has to go thru two traps in succession to get back to the boiler, this may be your problem- insufficient pressure differential so the water won't flow.

Call Dan Foley at Foley Mechanical, he's in Arlington. He knows his steam. Go to the Find a Professional page of this site to get his contact info (I don't have it in front of me at the moment).

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

RonWHC

Unless the boiler

height has been changed, or the piping raised, so that rear main wet return is now above the water line, an F&T should not be necessary. If, as they should, the radiator return lines are connected to the dry return, you may have other issues.

Is the end of the dry return vented? If not, vent it. What is the set boiler operating pressure? If above 1#, try lowering it. Are there any radiator traps connected to the dry return that were not repaired or replaced? If so, fix them. Is the new boiler supplying dry steam? If not, flush & skim until it does.

Just a few thoughts.

Jwheat

things we did

We have done all this work over a period of about 3 months. Started with Steam traps at each radiator, then when that job was finished while firing up the boiler we found major issues with the boiler and that is when the boiler got replaced. Before this work about half of the radiators where not heating, I don't know how they were acting I did not show up untill after the boiler was replaced. After the steam traps at the radiators replaced, and the boiler was replaced then we only had problems with two radiators and a water hammer problem, that he has had since he moved in three years ago. After conversations with the homeowner found that the two problem radiators have been moved when the HO renivated the house prior to moving in. Cut the hole in the basement under the kitchen found traped pipes a 3/4 copper dry return, and a 2" steel main. We pulled the main down a little so on shut down the main would drain to the wet return at the end of the main. We replaced the dry return to 3/4" steel and added the F&T trap between the main and the wet return. Then on the 2nd floor we needed to rerun the return to a return drop existing in the wall. we could not cut the ceiling below because of the high dollar paint ont he ceiling. We fired the boiler. No more hammer, radiators heat up and work. That day we cycled the boiler several times and did not have any problems. Five days later customer calls back same two radiators are not working, however still no hammering! He told us that when he turns the heat upto 80 all the radiators heat. Today on the job, there are ballvales on the mains just off the headers, both radiators are on the back house header, we closed the front house ballvalve some more, the customer has complained of too much heat in the front of the house. When we did this the 2nd floor radiator starts to heat all the way threw, the kitchen radiator starts to work its way threw but takes a while to heat the whole radiator. We talked to Sommervilles main man he told us to turn the pressures down some on the radiator, I don't know to what I was not on the job today. His thougt on the job is either Air locks or water locks and does not let the radiators drain properly. Told us to let it run for a couple of days and go back and check it. As for the F&T trap, I could take it out and see what happens with it. I think the main reason for the hammer was the little trap in the main, when we repitched that section we got about a gallon of water out of the main. I am a little curtios about it because the front of the house that works fine does not have any traps on the mains. The main runs around the front of the house back to the boiler and drops down to the wet return. Everything I have ever heard you need an f&t trap at the end of the return before the wet return so you don't have steam directly meeting water. Which is why we added it. If what Mr. Sommerville suggested does not work should I try to remove the f&t trap and she how it acts. Mr. Sommerville offered to come out and look at the job. My Brother knows Folly, he is on the ACCA board with him, I will definatley have my brother talk to him. Sorry so long just want to give as much info as I could, and help would still be great. Thank you

Dave Meers

where's the F&T?

Hi,

Do you put the new F&T on the steam supply main or the dry return? As steamhead suggests, a double trap situation (trap at radiator and then trap at dry return) would be a mistake. Traps at the end of a steam main on gravity return systems (no pump) are not necessary. You may want to consider removing.

Please advise on the location of the F&T.

Best regards, Pat

Jwheat

Update on my two rooms

The same time I was typing on the wall, my tech was on the phone with Jim Brennen (I don't know about the spelling) from Somerville. Jim came out to the job and YES told us we have an old vapor system that somebody tried to convert years ago. The homeowners befor ours used only parts of the house (according to our homeowner) and the parts that were used have no problems with heat and the parts that were not used had the problems. He explained to us about items that was on the system at one time and are no longer there and NO LONGER AVAILABLE. Therefore what we decided to do. Remove the F&T traps we put in (the trap in the main probably cause the water hammer anyways), lower the wet return at the boiler to make sure we are not passing steam through it, and add a vapor control. The system seamed to work better the longer it ran however seemed that when the boiler shut off a lot of water came rushing back to the boiler. Jim is thinking that the pressure is to high and therefore not allowing the water to flow back to the boiler. Everything we talked about makes since to me. We performed all the work early this week and will be going back to check it out. ANY THOUGHTS I will try not to leave such a gap in my response next time.

Dave Meers

sounds good to me

It sounds like you are on the right track. Fix the problems that you know you have, and wait to see the results.

Best regards, Pat