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Insultarp, Our Saviour
kevin coppinger_4
Member Posts: 2,124
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Insultarp, Our Saviour
Just heard that Insultarp now has independent testing results stating an R-value of 7+ for the product without the reflective properties being factored in. Of course, it sounds like they paid for the test (still unconfirmed), so I don't know how independent that can be.
Since the RIMA stuff has come out, people have been scrambling, it seems. Their Rep says they now want to test their competitors product--the standard underslab insulation of our industry. Why? You'd think they would be happy to now be legitimate, if they are in fact legitimate. Mmmm...maybe they want to lower the bar a bit? Who is to guess?
Sorry, I ain't sold (probably never will be) and will still condemn slabs that aren't performing.
M0 -
R-10 insulation
> Just heard that Insultarp now has independent
> testing results stating an R-value of 7+ for the
> product without the reflective properties being
> factored in. Of course, it sounds like they paid
> for the test (still unconfirmed), so I don't know
> how independent that can be.
>
> Since the RIMA
> stuff has come out, people have been scrambling,
> it seems. Their Rep says they now want to test
> their competitors product--the standard underslab
> insulation of our industry. Why? You'd think
> they would be happy to now be legitimate, if they
> are in fact legitimate. Mmmm...maybe they want
> to lower the bar a bit? Who is to guess?
> Sorry, I ain't sold (probably never will be) and
> will still condemn slabs that aren't performing.
> M
> Just heard that Insultarp now has independent
> testing results stating an R-value of 7+ for the
> product without the reflective properties being
> factored in. Of course, it sounds like they paid
> for the test (still unconfirmed), so I don't know
> how independent that can be.
>
> Since the RIMA
> stuff has come out, people have been scrambling,
> it seems. Their Rep says they now want to test
> their competitors product--the standard underslab
> insulation of our industry. Why? You'd think
> they would be happy to now be legitimate, if they
> are in fact legitimate. Mmmm...maybe they want
> to lower the bar a bit? Who is to guess?
> Sorry, I ain't sold (probably never will be) and
> will still condemn slabs that aren't performing.
> M
is the minimum underslab R-value in WA. state, the code states the product must be clearly marked, labeling its R-value, until all these other products can do that, i will probably still use 2 in. foam. marc0 -
R-10 insulation
is the minimum underslab R-value in WA. state, the code states the product must be clearly marked, labeling its R-value, until all these other products can do that, i will probably still use 2 in. foam. marc0 -
Mike
rememember the RPA bubble foam panel. One manufacture was claiming the 1" sand layer UNDER the bubble foam as part of the total R value. Be interesting to see how the InsulTarp product was tested.
hot rod
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hr 7.75 Rvalue!
Told them that you were an avid independent tester...they were hoping you were not testing insultarp...only the bubble foil stuff.
BTW, I have confirmed that they claim an Rv of 7.75 from a "private" testing facility, which is currently unknown by the Rep. I asked if it was the same facility that tested UltraFin (the Rep sells this product as well), and he said it was certainly a different testing party.
Another person I spoke to is now claiming to have tested some of this "crap" (my opinion), and is now claiming extreme Rvalues. Guess what? He has also sold large quantities of this stuff and is probably in a very poor position if people start getting wise or losing energy.
M0 -
High R-values in underground applications?
I had my doubts, and the tests coming out of home energy magazine confirmed my suspicions. Unless it is a vacuum-panel ($$$), you're always going to have a lot of heat loss/gain via conduction/convection. Some companies like Cabot are working on aerogels in heating/cooling insulation applications but that's like comparing a Rolls-Royce to a Yugo. Plus Aerogels have little compressive strength, IIRC.
I suspect that the ground conditions probably have more to do with the Insultarp results than the Insultarp itself. For example, a house built in sandy conditions with excellent drainage all-around will need a lot less basement insulation than a house built in wet clay to achieve the same heat loss, as dry sand is an excellent thermal barrier. However, all that has nothing to do with the Insultarp...
On the other hand, I can think of places where the stuff is superior to extant insulation... For example, I read a report some years ago by a couple which re-insulated their boat after the extant insulation decided to fall apart and turn to dust (cheap foam can do that). The loss of the insulation wasn't as obejectionable as the drooping wall panels (vinyl over the foam), so they used a Insultarp-like material as a substitute for the foam. Allegedly, it worked quite well, with good adhesion to the walls and vinyl, etc.0 -
what would you say is the thickest insulation you have used
under, around, or in the surrounding 6' apron of a building built, SOG?2" 4"10" ?i had a buddy who was into 9 foot thick walls in his adobe home...he always claimed the advantages of the thick adobe walls...i sorta think well....nah...12 blue foam would surely out preform 9 feet of mud and straw
..... 0 -
Depends on where your buddy lives...
Alaska blue foam - Arizona with hot days and cold nights I'd go with 9' of mud and straw assuming it leaves enough space inside.0 -
i was \"fishing' for a green builder
green builders are handy kinda guys they are like mr meticulous with the math and spend countless hours of thier days some wherewhen in thier lives figuring out way variable variables 0 -
Weezbo!...
You've explained it. Now I know what happened. I thought I was a young man, but looking in the mirror, I'm grey! The problem is I built a "green" house. All my time got calculated away. It's all clear to me now! ;~)
Yours, Larry
ps. I used 2" foam under the slab and ICFs for the basement walls.
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Hi Constantin
This thread ties in with another regarding insulation on the outside, and concrete (thermal mass-flywheel) on the inside.
Check out the amazing, but predictable results achieved by David South at www.monolithicdome.com
He sprays polyurethane foam on the ground, pours the slab, inflates his buildings (domes), sprays more foam onto the inside of the airform, attaches rebar, sprays on concrete, and has extremely strong and energy-efficient buildings.
I attended this man's 5 day course in Italy TX. and helped build a small house. Worth every penny.
His site is huge, with a lot of compelling content, so get ready for a lot of interesting reading.
As you said "homes with the concrete inside, are very comfortable homes".
I plan on building one out here in the woods of South Louisiana.
Happy reading.
Brian, Tankless in Swampland.0 -
can't use any mesh
need a product to be used for a pour on an existing cement base, looking for something that I can tie the tubing - cannot drill or penetrate the existing cement base - will this stuff work? Or any other suggestions much appreciated0 -
Hitch up the wagons, glue the horses
Whatever you do, don't use Insultarp. Use something with real numbers behind it. Find out what kind of numbers you need. Ask your designer. I'd be frightened of asking any Insultarp vendors for an opinion at this point. They would probably tell you to glue PEX tubing to the plastic in order to get a sale. Geez, there are no limits to crappy salestalk these days. As the industry spirals downward.....
Mi39ke0 -
Yup...
.... I WISH I could have had an exterior-insulated basement... but historic considerations limited me to XPS below-grade only, so the foundation walls were corbonded from the inside also. Thus, the only thermal mass down there is the floor, a shame, really.0 -
Thermal break in under slab insulation
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Thermal break vs Insulation on under slab applications
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In0 -
polyurethane on ground
I didn't think polyurethanes were rated for ground contact?There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Has anyone used
"The Barrier." Saw this at Radfest East trade show. It's a flexible foam material with tape on the edge for sealing to the next roll. Looked promising, but you first. WW
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That you \"heater\"
AL?0 -
US first...
That's one of the six I'm testing...
ME0 -
Can't wait
to hear the results. WW
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I don't think so either...
... My recollection with PU, closed or open, is that it absorbed water quite happily. The installations that I have heard about had the PU encapsulated, such as the Canadian sub-slab test that had it inside a metal box or somesuch.
I imagine that if you put down a vapor barrier first, like a TuTuff or 6 mil PE that the Polyurethane will be protected pretty effectively. However, critters and the like could be an issue...0 -
Testing
This is Wally again responding from NOFP -manufacturer of The Barrier.
I have a copy of Insultarp's testing that was done by US Testing Company in 1997 that gives them an R value of 10.1 for the 1/2" and 5.6 for the 3/8". This was presumably done with an airspace on both top on bottom which gives you the effect of the airspace and the reflective foil properties. I haven't been able to see the details of the test to actually know what amount of airspace was included, but what I do know is that our reflective foil products also have this high of R values which makes them great for staple up but with no R value when you don't have an airspace.
That being said, I'd love to see their new tests for an R value of 7 without the foil properties. I'm guessing that this material would probably have to be 1.5" thick to get that high.
If anyone has anything that they've been able to get from the mfg, I'd love to see a copy. We have no problem providing our independent certified test lab.
And actually when we say independent we mean that yeah we have to pay for the test but that they are an independently certified testing lab, usually certified by the ICC to do the tests which is important.
But, you certainly want to check the details because I'm still seeing bubble foil mfgs claim R values in the 1-2 range but the R value includes 2" of sand on top and the R value of the slab as well. When you look at the detail, you'll find that the R value of the material alone is R 0.4.
Interesting.
As far as testing goes, was The Barrier included in the test???
Wallty0
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