The Hydronic Human Microwave Oven/Steam shower

Mark Eatherton1

This is driven by a GSHP system we've been working on for over three years, and it looks like it'll be at least another year before it finishes.

We'll be doing some radiant counter tops in this home as well.

I'll get back later with some pictures of the driving forces.

Enjoy!

ME

Weezbo

..........

I like it i have to ask have you ever tried one of those "Indoor environmental centers"? the ones that rain, steam ,sauna ,cloud mist, shower....at a range of humidity,heat and "dampness" they are spendy deals , i think they come in around 5 figures .we havent many places around that have them ...heated bench and walls like this might be something a person could suggest as an Economical alternative cool?

Gordy

Kohler

I have seen the habitats made by Kohler......I work outside and get all the same benifits for free :^))

Gordy

Mark Eatherton1

Heat Source Photos

There are four ground source heat pumps powering this system. 2 are water to air/water and two are water to water. We are also pre heating their DHW wiht a dual coil Amtrol 119 gallon storage tank (Thanks Greg!) which is being piped this coming week.

The owners of the home have stated in their will that when they die, the home is destined to become a Ronald McDonald house. I think it's around 20,000 square feet of living space. These heat pumps are in the "crawl space".

The home is located in a avery upscale neighborhood in Denver. You should have seen the heads turn when we dragged the drilling rig up the street... It was there fore about a week, making hole. There are a total of 14 wells on the property to serve the GSHP systems.

ME

tls_9

Wow...

The last time I did a boiler room that looked like that, it served a new elementary school. You get all the best jobs! What are you using for a steam generator in the sauna?

Nice Job!

tom

Gordy

design

Mark, how long does it take you to design something like this, from concept to being ready to go?

Gordy

Mark Eatherton1

Gordo...

I think this one took close to a month to design and estimate. The more complex, the more time involved.

A lot of people don't realize the comlexity involved with doing an estimate. They think we look in a book and pick a number... Boy, don't I wish :-)

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Weezer...

I've never used a shower head that used more than 2.5 GPM in the last 20 years. I find it unconscienable.
ME

Constantin

Nice work, as usual!

Looks like a lot of electric water heaters being used as buffer tanks? The owners are lucky to have you, given the prices of coal-powered energy in the Denver area, this house will cost pennies to run... that is, if the rest of the house was built as thoughtful as the mechanical room.

Did you get any input into the external envelope? How is the house insulated, etc.?

Weezbo

wow wee! whata nice geothermal room

i did not see that earlier today before work ...Super Cool i personally dont swim up river more than twice a year myself

Kal Row

two questions ME...

what brand water/water heat pump - and why that one?

how do you get the plates on pipe to be quiet?, they seem to act as a sound conductor/concentrator of remote pex movement, makes you crazy when you do ceiling radiant, got a house to do now, and i will only do lightweight aluminized composite sub floor upside-down for the ceiling radiant, the HO balks at the cost and I am too chicken to do the plates, heard horror stories – then again it does sound like ghosts in the attic

I wish you would post diagrams of this stuff, we could learn so much

Gordy

Mark

Amazin, Do you have a design team or is it all you? Don't mean to pry but you guys amaze me with some of these projects. Seems like it would take a month to layout the mechanical room. It sure seems like a different animal, the bidding end. Most people think you guys can shoot prices like other aspects of construction, square foot,cubic yard, lin.foot ect.ect. prices.

Gordy

Mark Eatherton1

We have

three people in our office capable of design/estimation.

If all I had to do was design/estimation, it would be WONDERFUL. However, I also troubleshoot orphaned systems, do field visits and follow up visits on our own crews (supervision).

Each designer/estimator is also responsible for getting the crews materials together for the task at hand. In addition to the above work, I do legal expert witness consulting which at times consumes ALL of my time, but its at a SUBSTANTIALLY higher rate per hour than I'd charge for doing the other work.

No two systems are the same. Except for two identical homes we did for a gent up north for he and his son that is:-)


Some are done with zone valves, some are done with non electric TRV's, some are done with atmospheric boilers, some are done with condensing boilers, some are done with ground source heat pumps, and soon some may be done with hydrogen fuel cells. So as you can see, no two systems are the same, and have to be designed and estimated from scratch.

The problem is, a lot of my supposed competiton is shooting from the hip. I've had people tell me that they got quotes from salesman the same day (in fact within the hour) of the time the guy got the blue prints... No heat loss, no design schemat, no material take off. And those are the jobs we end up inheriting as orphans...

So to prove to the customer that I do more than just hang out at The Wall all day long (lunch time relief), I "show" them all the paper work necessary to generate their proposal and tell them how much time I had to put in to do their bid. I emplore them to ask the competiton to do the same (show them the paperwork).

We have assembled a number of "tools" that utilize the fire power of our computers to expedite things, but it still requires a manual take off and heat loss calculation.

In addition to the tools required to assemble the bid, we have other "tools" to track the man power and adjust our spread sheets used for estimation based on real world efficiency numbers. We have a full time office manager that manages those numbers for us and reports accordingly.

So, as you said, its not something that you can shoot from the hip with, unless you're into shooting yourself in the foot:-)

ME

Mark Eatherton1

The home...

is one of the best built homes I've ever seen. I jokingly ask the GC if he's changed his permenant mailing address yet... He laughed the other day and pointed out a mail box on site with his name on it.

The framing was done with Timberstrand lumber and the walls throughout will be superinsulated with a water based foam. The shell is exceptional. And although we didn't need to have any input on this job, if we see and area that is problematic and can be addressed with conservation, we strongly recommend it up front.

ME

Mark Eatherton1

Kal...

We use Water Furnace. They're one of the oldest WSHP manufacturers around. THere are some that appear to be better built, but availability is an issue.

As for the plates, temperature stability is key to noiseless operation. You can acheive that with either an outdoor reset control, or a non electric TRV. We're using the latter in this case. Also, the plates will be covered with 1/2" of cementitious board, and then 1" of dark colored marble. For the most part, the sauna will be kept at a constant temperature, so big swings will be non existant.

The majority of the problems that I've heard coming from PEX in aluminum plate systems come from the use of the lighter flashing style plates. If bound tightly with staples, screws or whatever, the things make a noise like an old thin spout oil can when you press on the bottom. Hard to explain, but its called "oil canning". I've never had it be a problem with the extruded aluminum plates.

ME

Kal Row

tnx for the info, ps...

if you use "hardibacker" tile board (i like it cause it's simple and water proof) - use gloves and mask when cutting as i am told the dust is almost as bad as asbestos

Weezbo

see how lucky we are not to be fettered with the obvious...

problems of the filthy rich )) like to day for example....i didnt wake up and start fretting over where to moor the Yacht or where did we park the leer jet last night ...:) no , instead i find that the trap isnt on the bath tub that was "tested"prior to sheet rock....:))) o Man its good ..:) lucky for me the bath tubiee was moi. and not the habby home owner! i can see it now...:)) jeez louiezz .in the freezing cold pumping water in and out of a tub to test it is a hassel..we cant let it go down the drain or it will freeze ...so we air tested the system at 2X the normal psi on the potable and dwv pump water into the tub and back out ..then when i think well, lets go take a look andsee if the traps are all in they arent...in the crawl space..so i figure well, must be the ladd didnt get around toit ! :)O2it in the crawl spaces...which made me wonder a bit...buh nah ...surely that one on the second floor was done.. Well there i go being Mr. Optomistic....well....conservation of water is oki dokie in my books conserving it in the leach field though would have suited me just fine however now i am conserving it in a bucket to get it off the floor.oh joy

Weezbo

the obvious double whammy

i realize its all my fault..i shoulda known that :)By Now my spring start is sorta whack ..i dont know where the 1" 100 foot rolls of copper stubb outs went...and no one buried the fueloil tank,..i think the rebar uprightss slowed the carpenters from taking the slow winter out on my radiant header:)) and the oil lines ..whadda joke.someone pulled them out of the abs protection sleeve i dont even know why i bother....luckily though the place is standing and tomorrows a balmy 9+F or maybe better:) oh joy )))