Here's something for those who want designers regulated...

rb_6

the designers at the wholesale level to contractors to inspectors in the field scrambling...will be very intersting to see what happens when it go into effect.

another excerpt

"Design firms must be registered, unless they are exempted under the Building Code. To be come registered, a design firm must:

ensure that all persons working in the firm who will review and take responsibility for design activities have successfully completed the exam program for their area(s) of practice;

file its qualification information with the Director of the Building and Development Branch;

carry insurance, as required by subsection 2.21.2 of the Building Code;

After filing, the firm will receive a BCIN

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From the guys in our recent classes...no BCIN - no permit.

rb_6

This has been a robust event for designers and inspectors

an excerpt from the link below:

"Beginning July 1, 2005, a number of changes in the Building Code Act, 1992 and Building Code will affect designers. Among other changes, designers may be required to be registered and/or qualified.

Who is a designer?

Designers are individuals who:

prepare designs or give information/opinions about whether a building or part of a building complies with the Building Code, where such information is submitted as part of a permit application.


prepare written reports on building construction based on a general review, where required by the Building Code.
Under the new legislation, designers may need to be qualified. Read section 15.11(5) of the Building Code Act, 1992 and section 2.17 of the Building Code for further details. "

Full details at the link below:

http://www.obc.mah.gov.on.ca/userfiles/HTML/nts_4_22773_1.html

Mad Dog

good

mad dog

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EBEBRATT-Ed

Curious. What state are you in??

GMcD

Province of Ontario

The Province is trying to regulate the Construction industry including architects and consulting engineers. The respective professional associations are all up in arms since the current legislation will require all design professionals working in the building design and construction industry to write a Building Code exam in order to become registered. Fear and loathing in Ontario.

Another link:

http://www.ceo.on.ca/lib/db2file.asp?fileid=247

Some folks think it's about time, and especially out here in BC, land of the leaky condo. BC is also a province that doesn't even have a "Permit to Practice" requirement to be a consulting engineer. If the Insurance companies don't force the action, then the Government will. This could be a real catfight for the Professional Organizations who want to be self-regulating - Engineers and Architects.

rb_6

Some have called it

pruning.

Enjoyed my last week in T.O. and Barrie doing seminars and hearing the war stories...should heat up pretty good in the coming months.

Geoff, haven't the professional association obtained exceptions...if not I can't see them taking this one sitting down.

Mark Eatherton1

I'd like to see...

the engineering community, primarily mechanical engineers, required to serve a minimum of 4 years in the field prior to receiving their shingle. It will teach them the need to allow clearances for putting 5 pounds of sugar into a 2 pound bag.

I also agree with certifying "designers". It's too easy to read a book or two, print business cards and go into business as a consultant...

JMHO

ME

GMcD

Not as far as I've heard

So far the current news in the Associations is in the "strong letter to follow" stage. It will be interesting times. I can certainly see some trepidation in the 80% or so of engineering and architecture offices that mainly practice as "drafting services" using "design by rote" as "engineering". Yah, pot calling the kettle black, it wasn't that long ago that I was part of the mob. too....

The trouble is that there is virtually zero post secondary education for Building Services engineering consultants, and a good 99% of the HVAC, plumbing, fire protection and electrical engineers got where they are today by OJT - on the job training. Fine if you worked for a progressive firm that had good mentors, but a vast majority are taught by the sink or swim method. Yes, there are some good technical post secondary education sources for the designer/technologist level, but the responsible professionals are where we have to work.

Tony Conner

Insurance Issues...

...will be impressive. The article I saw indictated that "Errors & Omissions" coverage for design work would be required for HVAC techs and plumbers to get approval of their plans. That's essentially impossible to get for design/build outfits.

I USED to have E&O coverage, a few years ago. I had access to it because I belong to OACETT (Ontario Association Of Engineering Technicians & Technologists). Then, a couple of years ago - poof - no longer available if I was doing installation and/or maintenance work. I could get either E&O, or CGL. The people that carried my contractor's coverage didn't care, it was the E&O guys who said that they'd cover my design work only on the condition that I bowed out of the wrench side. I didn't really fit into anybody's little catagory boxes on their charts, so I kind of went through the insurance cracks. So, I just stopped doing formal design work. When I read about the E&O requirement for the HVAC & plumbing people, I contacted my insurance carriers again, to see if the requirement for HVAC & plumbing guys had caused the E&O insurance providers to draw some new boxes on their forms. Not so far.

To add to the fun here in sunny Ontario, the folks that licence (among other things) fuel techs are getting THEIR oar into the water as well. And, of course, without any particular eye to meshing their requirements with the other rule-makers requirements. To suggest that this is going to be a HUGE mess is the understatement of the year.

rb_6

Tony - any official statements from

... the MCA or OACETT?

Tony Conner

Not That...

...I've heard. I only saw the article outlining the new requirements last week. It was the E&O insurance requirements that caught my eye. Very few insurance outfits do E&O - it's a real niche market. I believe that you have to belong to a professional association to even apply for E&O. (And that doesn't necessarily mean you'll get it. My situation is a perfect example.) The powers that be will have to figure a way around this one, and you can bet that whatever way it is that they chose, it'll be as big a mess as they've got now. Just different.

Boiler Guy

Rebublic

of Ontario. Can't organize it, inspect it,control it , ........... make it illegal and collect for IT !!

Tony Conner

The pressure piping regulations & requirements that I normally deal with is a complete mess as well. The 2003 CSA B51 Boilers & Pressure Vessels Code has an addition requiring all shops (both in-house maintenance and contractors) perfoming pressure piping work to have a quality assurance manual, approved by the jurisidictional authority. After decades (if ever) of essentially NO inspections at all, almost nobody even knows what codes are being referred to. Most of the plant people think that this is the notice that they have to somehow comply with pressure piping codes. It's not. They were ALWAYS supposed to comply with the codes, this latest CSA requirement is simply to put together a manual formalizing HOW YOU'RE DOING IT. People are having huge problems writing manuals, because they don't even know what codes are involved, let alone what they say, let alone how to write a manual outlining exactly how they comply with them. It's absolute chaos.

GMcD

Not just Ontario

Remember my discussion a few weeks back about the steam valve specs that the local steam utilities plant guys were trying to enforce on me? What is happening is that there is such a divergence of knowledge and a general level of ignorance among all parties, including consulting engineers, architects, and building code consultants, not just the local low paid building inspectors at the municipal level.

The cities and towns are trying to reduce their liability by collecting building permit money, and not doing any "legal" inspections. Most Provinces and municipalities require the design professionals to write "Letters of Assurance" when we apply for a building permit, and then the fine print on the building permit holds the city harmless for any building problems that happen later when they have some design professionals on the hook with the Letters of Assurance. Yet those same building inspectors can come onto a project site and demand certain interpretive code requirements that don't make any logical sense when it comes to the intent of the code or actual safety and blackmail the professional into making a change. The awesome "Stop Work" card on the wall.

On the other hand, there are a lot of "design professionals" who should have their work inspected due to their poor practices too. The result we are seeing is a general level of "accepted mediocrity" that society is willing to tolerate until it sinks too low. Then the Gov't or the Insurance companies step in.

Weezbo

........

well, this is why i suggest we have our own set of standards and wait till or when the codes catch up...and perhaps we ought to hand the inspector a bill for educating them. things they evidently dont know yet are bad mouthing.....really here we have had the good fortune of actually knowing one another and speaking with each other face to face ,the problems that you face in more populated areas is that there are people you never see making up rules for people they will never see that are being voted on acceptance from people you seldom even know
beeing sent to some legaslative body or panel that may as well be micky mouse on the moon.....the code books need to be apprehended as minimum standard written by people who are bound to make mistakes so until people actually realize that there is a problem ,God couldnt even help them............once upon a time.....my buddy and i lashed up all the mechanicals on /and a sewage treatment plant lift stations and 3 60 hp pumps and the incinerator....the state came upon the site asked what we were doing and blah bla blah,went away came back handed us the initial report bad mouthed us some more and left....then they came around for an inspection...these three inspectors babbeled a bunch and we kept working , they tried to get us to say something to them instead they had been such AH the last time around we were prepared to quote them chapter and verse and read thier butts the riot act ,we designed it and put it together my buddy Richard and i were really needing a break and also needing to get it on line .....then they went away again...mean while they had hasseled nearly every electrician carpenter and plumber on the job doing tie ins etc....my words were "Ignore them ,and then they will go away"...all these other trades men would pick our brains from time to time on codes etc as we were skilled in more than one trade each,half the time they wouldnt even do as we suggested they seemed to be more interested in what they were set about in thier minds and not our experiential ideas on the bestway to get thier job up to standard......well the inspectors came back and handed a book to the carpenters ,a twenty page pamphlet to the electricians a 5 page one to the plumbers and save us for last....the guy hands Richard a two page sheet..one was some cover sheet, the other was some two sentences about what good work we had done....i was angry...i dont need them telling me anything and wasting my time so i went over and said "well , what do you want to bad mouth us about NOW? we are buzy and prefer if you will leave.we know how to read and any corrections we will make.".......the guy looked at me and looked at Richard and said ,i want to congratulate you both for doing such a good job,the reason we had asked so many questions of the two of you wasnt because we thought there was anything wrong with your work,...it was because the state camp down the road has all kinds of problems and doesnt work right and we were trying to figure out what we could suggest to fix our' system and i am prepared to offer you guys a contract after your appraisal on the site,...."Really we dont have time for that" ,So Mr Richard asks me for a side bar "it is only just over the mountain we could probably fix it forthem on the way back to town..."yah buh why should we help those clowns they p me off the last couple times they came up here,and now you want us to get in a Home owner agreement with the State?" "tell him time and materials and only if we have the time and we aint training anyone", so Rich goes back and says well, i could go take a look at it buh right now we are buzy..."we will pay you, if thats what your worried about", "well,we got to get back to work"so he hung around till lunch break and then Richard ran the guy over to state camp....dropped him off looked around came back said "well, i dont know, a lot of it is maint stuff you could go take a look at it theres nothing real fricked up with it..." so i went over the mountain after dinner that night ....well it is like this why we would want to put up with a bunch of BS,trouble shoot their problems and for what? i fixed a few things for them with the tools they had around just to get outa there.""i would rather have had us set the system up from the gate."all we are doing is running around putting out fires for them soon as we turn a hand over there.."well the guys over there thanked the inspector and asked if we could come by for a while,we let that "go"....later that year the camp got hasseled by the EPA and i for one am actually Glad we didnt decide to go play MR.Fix-It for them... i for one have no confidence in computer generated architectural designe over a guy with a wrench who knows how to do the work and listens for the Word and studies and gets ready for the day of the son of man.

Boiler Guy

Don't hold back Weez

I agree with you 200%. If I did my job the way most regulators fail to do theirs, I couldn't even spell whatever it is supposed to be called.

Dave Yates (PAH)

The worst part?

Only the licensed contractors are made to comply with codes and permitting requirements. No enforcement efforts are being made where those who choose to deliberately work outside of existing regulations - sans permits - are being made. No fines, no court costs, no nothing.

I'll get excited when the scofflaws are reigned in and it no longer appears to be a money raising effort with me as the driving source of their funds. Sorry, but until they fix the system, I'm not interested in any additional regulations that interfere with my business. It already takes 90-minutes of in-person face time to obtain permits in my town and the inspectors haven't clue-one as to what it is they're looking at where hydronics is concerned.

They can't raise the bar if they can't even recognize what the bar looks like.

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Tony Conner

Exactly...

... the national body - the CSA - developed the requirement for pressure piping shops to have a QA manual. That was a good thing. However, it's up to the jurisdictional authority to approve these manuals, and enforce the code requirements. That's a bad thing, and has been for as long as I've been involved with this stuff - pushing 30 years. The only people who have suffered under this new requirement are those who were stupid enough to try to comply - like me. The only real hope is that the insurance companies start to deny coverage and/or claims for those outfits who aren't properly qualified.

Tony Conner

Yep...

... when I first heard of the new requirements, my first question to the inspection authority was "Is this going to be effectively enforced?" Oh, absolutely, I was told. What a crock. The only ones caught up in the mess are the guys who were complying with the code requirements anyway. It's business as usual for the hacks. To date, it's been a complete waste of my time and resources.

Tony Conner_2

Here's The Article...

... out of "Plumbing & HVAC Product News". I should have cropped the scans a little better, the text at the bottom of "E&O 1" and the top of "E&O 2" overlap a bit. (The magazine page is a goofy size.)

Kal Row

it's been proven time and again - that regulation doesnt work..

first it's corruptible, second it’s always obsolete, I happen to be someone that kept up, but I know a few old timers with full credentials that can be outperformed on all fronts by a young’un that read ziggi’s book – and is not embarrassed to ask questions!!! And who do you think, is actually doing the work for all those registered people. I am not convinced that the licensed/bonded is doing better and than the new up to date person with good training and access to the old-timer’s wisdom you find in Dan’s books

we should have our own licensing/bonding association since “we” really know – we would probably save a mint on insurance – strength in numbers..

getting the government involved never ever helps – it’s the #1 lie in the top three lies:

1) were are from the government – we are here to help you

2) the check is in the mail

3) boy to girl…don’t worry, I wont…(oops #3 is off color)

Tony Conner_2

I Forwarded...

... the scanned article from the trade mag, and the pair of links to OACETT yesterday. They're "reviewing the attached information", and will get back to me shortly.

Doesn't exactly sound like they're "all over it", does it?

This whole situation is going to be a train wreck.