home depot gives advise

A. mitchell

I picked up my local paper (The Metro West daily news) and found an article written by "the expert" at the Home Depot- after reading I decided to inquire about him - and found out he happens to be a "PAINTER" with no licensing in plumbing or mechanical field.

Article:
Furnace replacement may not be necessary

Dear Dan:
I live in a 57 year-old home, heated by the original "gravity" furnace installed when the home was built. During the winter months, condensation appears on some of the windows. I was told that "fumes" leaking from the furnace a re causing the condensation. A furnace installation man confirmed this, but I was wondering if he was just trying to sell me a new furnace.
This doesn't sound right to me. I'd hate to replace what I have with a new system not only because of the expense, but also because this old gravity system provides such comfortable and even heating with a quiet operation. I wonder if some other factors might be the cause of this moisture. What is your opinion? Thanks so very much. - Donald

Dear Donald:
An old saying applies here: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The fact that you are experiencing condensation on the interior of your windows is no surprise to me, especially considering the age of the home and the type of heating system that exists. Chances are that unless you have replaced the original windows of your homw with new insulated units or have installed storm windows, you are more susceptible to condensation for the very reasons you stated in your letter. The vast difference in temperature between the interior of your home in the morning (usually very warm) and the exterior (usually very cold), results in condensation or :sweating" at the location where the exchange occurs - on the inside of your windows. Thermal pane or insulated windows that contain an air space between the two pieces of glass are designed to minimize the transfer of air, thereby significantly reducing the condition for the condensation to occur.
Another likely reason you are experiencing this condition is due to the lack of ventilation or air circulation in your home. Unlike modern gas-fired forced air furnaces that contain blowers to move the air throughout the home, your little gem depends on gravity to heat the home. Now I'm not knocking your gravity furnace, I just want you to be aware of what one if its drawbacks is that may be contributing to your problem. Also, your furnace installer was partially correct when he suggested that the "fumes" from the furnace were contributing to the condition. He was implying there is a certain level of condensation released by the natural gas burning in the furnace, although chances are this is only a fraction of the problem. Before you consider replacing what has served you well for many years, I suggest you look into the addition of a thermal pane to your existing windows and/or the installation of an auxiliary fan will significantly improve the movement of air in your home. Your local home center will be able to assist you with the windows and a call to a reputable heating contractor should address the fan issue.

Steve_35

Time to write a letter or two

I'd start with a letter to the editor of the paper pointing out the fumes could include CO. I'd send a copy to the manager of the local HD as well as their home office.

A. mitchell

When I spoke to the editor all she could say is I'm sorry we will have him retract in next fridays paper.
"TO BAD FOR THE THIRTY THOUSAND PEOPLE THAT RECEIVE THE PAPER DAILY"

lchmb

Hey

Does that mean I can tell people to stop going to home depot and just send me a letter? I'll just tell them by paper how to fix everything..don't have to see it. Man that sounds great, no more crawling, freezing...getting covered in soot...wow I like it!! I can probably even tell em how to paint...:)

jbplumber

Set up a little

repair shop at the kitchen table. Nice pot of coffee some sticky buns you will be all set no need to even start the truck, as the business grows you may even consider selling the truck and buying a bigger table. All kidding aside someone can and will get hurt from Homer's poor advise.

S Ebels

Please tell me................

Tell me that this is a sick attempt at a joke by a truly warped individual!!

ScottMP

And while this man

is at Home Depot buying new windows, his family dies.

How sad..

Scott

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chuck shaw

The only reason they

are probally alive now, is those leaky windows.

Chuck

Paul Rohrs_2

But wait! there is more....

But it will have to wait because he is mixing up some Mauve #13 paint for Mrs.Jones in Aisle 7.

Regards,

PR

Darin Cook_3

That is the first thing I thought too, Chuck

The only thing preventing a disaster is all the dilution air from that leaky house. There is a tragedy there just waiting to happen.







Darin

Mark Hunt

I am suprised


that he didn't mention the useless CO alarms they sell.

I don't know about you guys, but I ALWAYS ask my painter for home heating advice. And I ask masons for medical advice.
I ask doctors for advice when my truck makes a funny noise.


I wonder how many people have already been poisoned because of bad advice from an "expert"?

Mark H

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gerry gill

when i see the commercials

i always chuckle when they use the term expert...makes you wonder what qualifies a person to be an expert....eurika, it just dawned on me.....an apron...

Dave Yates (PAH)

I thought this HAD to be a sick joke

but it's not. Here's the link:

http://www.metrowestdailynews.com/artsCulture/view.bg?articleid=88903

This is the type of mis-information that gets people killed. I, for one, am going to write to their editor and suggest he be removed from their "experts" list. He's evidently been exposed to far too many paint fumes to be giving any advice!

His e-mail address as well as HD's is listed at the end.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

missile

I'm pretty sure my reply via their web site left a smoke trail. I searched their site for the editor's e-mail, but could only find the standard reply-to box. That'll have to do - for now. Lynch needs a check-up from the neck-up.

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Constantin

Here was my criticism....

This is what I left on their "contact us" page:

-----

"Your advice from a painter at HomeDepot re: Donalds question on a gravity furnace found on the following URL is potentially deadly advice.

Attacking the symptom of a wet home (frosting on windows) is the wrong way to go about it. The "expert" should have figured out where the excess moisture is coming from, not blindly advocate a solution.

The windows may be condensing for many reasons, the most logical being that Donalds furnace has a crack in the heat exchanger. If that is the case, potentially deadly combustion gases are entering the household. These gases contain a lot of water vapor, which will then condense on the windows.

Please contact Donald and have him find a professional heating contractor review the heat exchanger in his furnace, as Donalds life may depend on it. If the furnace is safe, it should not add any water vapor to the inside of the home.

Then, it may be time to review other sources of moisture in the home like wet basements, excess humidifiers, etc. Once the moisture levels drop to normal levels, the frosting will largely disappear.

Lastly, retrofitting quality storm windows (Harvey Tru-Channel, for example) is usually far more cost effective than replacing windows altogether. Plus, you preserve the historic glass and sashes, which lasted a long time for a reason (they were built with better wood).

In closing, please print a retraction and find a better heating expert than the painter at Home Depot to answer the heating questions. You might save a life. "

-----

And you know what just hit me? The chimney! I forgot about that... ah the possibilities...

Ken D.

Homer

Some years ago, I had a nighttime service call from a family that was not a regular customer. The reason they called was noise from a broken B&G circ. coupler. When I entered the house, it felt warm and humid but detected no other odors. I replaced the coupler and motor mounts and checked both the gas boiler and gas water heater for safety as per standard operating procedure. Had no draft whatsoever on either appliances due to a blocked chimney. I went upstairs for further investigaton. The woman told me no one in the house had been feeling well. I noticed she looked flushed and of course the windows were covered with condensation. After much cajoling (they were in denial) I called the Fire Dept. They took the whole family in for CO poisoning and ventilated the house. As previously suggested, it was probably the old loose and drafty windows that prevented them from dying sooner. If that circ. coupler hadn't of broken, they probably all would have died. Sooner or later these home centers and do it yourself outfits are going to get into some serious trouble by this so called free advice from clearly unqualified personnel. And by selling these appliances to people who don't have the slightest idea of what they are doing. Condensation on the windows indicates a very serious condition and this painter hadn't a clue. Incredible.

Constantin

Congrats, you saved a family!

A standard operating procedure (checking for draft, etc.) and your skills at observation is what saved this families life. I hope they thanked you for that.

As I see it, this is yet another reason not to drive service techs too hard. It's too easy to miss the subtle clues if you have another 5 assignments ahead, and 12 assignments behind you. Plus, you don't know unless you test.

I hope that America wakes up at some point and rebels against the cheapening of products

John R. Hall

Contact the author

I sent an e-mail to the "expert" -- asking how he plans to respond to the obvious flaw in his logic. I encourage everyone to do the same. Let's keep our finger on this.

jackchips_2

Great save, Ken.

A little prayer goes out to you today.

Murph'_5

Whats the difference?

Between homeys page and un-trained, non-experienced folks here on the wall. six months of web-sufing makes somebody qualified to diagnose heating systems from a keyboard?


Murph'

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JCD

Call a TV station

Hey, have you thought about calling a TV station
on this? I'm sure this would get everybodies attention.
- The newspaper, the Home Depot, and perhaps local
govt. officials.

John R. Hall

Author replies

Dear Mr. Hall,


"Oh what sweet agony, the preservation of antiquity"

Below is a copy of the reply I sent to Mr. N. who was the first of many heating contractors that contacted me regarding Donald's furnace question.



Dear Mr. N.
I want to thank you for your e-mail response and noting my answer to Donald was not complete. I assumed that the furnace man he mentioned found nothing with the unit except for its age.

I try to answer all the questions that are asked, and sometimes I enlist the help of a professional in that field. I failed to do that with Donald's question, which was a gross error on my part. I should have told him to get a complete furnace inspection from a qualified heating specialist.

I will make every effort in the future not to repeat this mistake, and a clarification will be in this weeks paper.

Again, thank you.

Dan

Bruce M.

How could it be a furnace if it is a gravity system??

What are you talking about? If it is a gravity system it is a boiler.

Constantin

Actually, there are such things as gravity furnaces

They operate on the same principle as gravity boilers, with the difference of the heat exchange medium. Boilers use water, gravity furnaces use air. Here is a link to an image at NACHI that shows the installation/operating principles of a gravity furnace.

If you go into older homes that were not originally heated with steam heat, such furnaces were quite common. Typically fed by coal in the basement, these "octopus" furnaces would distribute heat into all the rooms via large round plenums and the return air would then drop through a very large grate in a central stairwell back into the basement. Often, the doors in such houses were undercut to allow return air to pass beneath a closed door into the stairwell.

Here is another link, this time to an inspectional company where you can see an in-situ octopus furnace. A google image search should also help you further. Cheers!

jackchips_2

Excellent description,

Constantin. It's the type of system our tenement house had when I was a kid.

Whitin Machine Works, in it's day, was the worlds largest textile machinery manufacturer. They had many company owned tenement houses, many multi-family, in which the workers lived in as part of their weekly pay and almost all of them had coal, converted to oil or gas, gravity furnaces.

The only difference was the very large return grille was in the family room and you had to be sure not to cover it with anything.

Jack

Constantin

Thanks Jack!

Our current Mansard started off with gas lighting and individual coal stoves in each room. They then went for a gravity furnace, I think. By the time we bought the house, the furnace had been upgraded to a 200 kBTU Williamson monster (a 6' cube) from the 1980's.

While there was no direct trace of a gravity system, the very large return grate in the stairwell is what leads me to suspect that the old system was not assisted by fan motors... that and the lack of a rat slab under the Williamson when we finally pulled it to pieces.

There is no better testament to modern heating, construction, and insulation materials and techniques than a house with 50% more usable area (the basement was unbearable) being heated by a boiler with 50% less input than the Williamson.

Ken D.

Oh, by the way;

Every home or building that uses some form of fossil fuel should have one or more quality Carbon Monoxide Detectors. These are as necessary smoke detectors. Your lives depend on it.