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Has a deadbeat client taken you to the cleaners?

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John Ruhnke
John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
in THE MAIN WALL
Has a deadbeat client taken you to the cleaners?

Now you can do something about it. Put them on your Chitlist. No this is not a obsene comment. The Chitlist is real. You can find it at Chitlist.com. Also before you start that new radiant job maybe you should check the chitlist data base first. Chitlist is brand new and still free to the first 100 that sign up. I got in for free. I have been waiting a long time for a place to easily report my deadbeat clients too.

John Ruhnke

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I am the walking Deadman
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Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
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Comments

  • Ken_8
    Ken_8 Member Posts: 1,640
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    HEY DAN!

    I think John's onto something here.

    Not necessarily the site he likes, but one you might create!

    Think about it. If those of us who pay for a FAC ads could also be privy to deadbeats in our area, an additional service could be rendered to our group - as well as be a source of additional revenue.

    I for one would gladly pony up a modest fee for a list of "suspect" customers that are in north Jersey - provided by the class act contractors that also advertise on FAC.

    Whattaya think? Some geography's too sparse? Too many problems with internal security? Shoot me down. I think it's a great idea!

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
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    Ken,

    should Dan also add for suspect contractors who advertise on this site or others?

    Who decides if a customer is a "deadbeat"? A dissatified contractor?

    Do you have a mediation board to decide each complaint before listing someone?

    Many questions before floating this boat.

    Jack
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Check out Chitlist...................

    Jackchips,

    Chitlist is deperatly needed by the industry. Deadbeats rule out there. What is worse, someone that shoplifts $50.00 worth of cloths? or a deadbeat that skips out of paying his contractor $1000.00?

    Acording to the law the shoplifter will get many years in prison. The deadbeat? Worse case is that he goes to civil court and loses. He only has to pay back the $1000.00 and other minor expenses.

    The shoplifter is most likely desperate, starving, and broke. They are forced to try and steal just to get cloths so they don't freeze in the winter time. For that they go to jail. In most circumstances they are good people down on there luck just trying to survive.

    The Deadbeat? Most of the time he has tons of money. He just thinks that because he has a college education that he is much more valuable then some umeducated plumber. The plumber earns $50,000 a year and the deadbeat works on wall street earning $200,000 a year. The deadbeat trades money back and forth and never makes the world a better place. The plumber on the other hand works very hard to improve the quality of his workmanship everyday and makes the world a better place.

    John Ruhnke

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
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    John,

    I think we know better than that. Honesty is not a function of the pocketbook but a function of the morals of a person. Dishonesty comes in all shapes and sizes, regardless of personal net worth.

    Plus, considering the behaviors of some celebrities that have been caught shoplifting, it is apparent that some people shoplift not because they must, but because they can. It's a mental sickness just like all the others. Perhaps some of your deadbeats would benefit from counseling... suggest it to the judge the next time, perhaps she/he will take you up on it.

    Lastly, ask yourself the next time you fall deathly ill whether the lifesaving medicine or medical treatment you receive is a function of a worthless diploma or the result of years of research, rigorous training, etc. Not everyone that has a degree is a mere paper-pusher getting paid $$$ for doing nothing.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
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    I signed up for another reason....

    i am going to "report"
    my two best friends and myself *~/;) for providing countless years of service to the community ,doing excellent craftmanship and designe with the eye on energy conservation and the finest products and intergrated control stradgies available :))) Oh Ooops *~/:) me Very mischief TO DAY!
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
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    Whenever theres an argument or diversity of opinion....

    Examine The Source *~/:)
  • Steve_35
    Steve_35 Member Posts: 546
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    Thanks, John.

    I signed up.

    FWIW, I'm just looking for a place to post and find those that don't pay their bill.
  • Geo_2
    Geo_2 Member Posts: 76
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    Deadbeats

    Thank you for that link John Ruhnke, I really hope the site takes off. It's about time we had a voice.
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Just an example..............

    It was just an example of two different posibilities. Yes there are other possibilities. But those possibilities are very real.

    People underestimating our worth is a huge problem for America. It takes a long time to gain the knowledge to be a good plumber. This knowledge is just as valuable as any college education. Society doesn't take our form of education seriously. It will destroy the quality of life for everyone around. We need smart people in the trades. The world needs smart people in the trades. When you come across a smart trades person you need to put your listening cap on because they can teach you a lot of valuable things. Don't ever forget that.

    John Ruhnke

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Great idea!!

    Weezbo,

    I like the positive attitude. Why not list a good and kind client with rave reviews!! Maybe the next Contractor will give them a discount.

    John Ruhnke

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
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    now that sounds like a God kinda plan :)

    accentuate the positive negate the negative zing :)....No matter What human minds intend....:)"T'is heavens decision at the end....pardon the abject plagerism with the change of a preposition....
  • lchmb
    lchmb Member Posts: 2,997
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    tried weezbo

    tried it weezbo, just to darned hard to watch my lip's move when I argued with me..:) takes all the fun out of it!!
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
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    There is no question...

    ... that the trades have something to teach, and that people should appreciate the skill that anyone brings to their craft. Whether the craft is plumbing, heating, painting, farming, child rearing, "doctoring", "lawyering", "CPA'ing", etc. really doesn't matter.

    What does matter is to listen to folk who know what they're doing when they give you advice. I'm here with both of ears wide open for that very reason.

    Anyway, I can see how this site could add value to your business. However, considering just how successful the BBB is at identifying hazardous companies to work for (or to hire) and the magnitude of the problem becomes clear.
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
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    deadbeats

    the biggest deadbeats are general contracrors and builders. they will always get you, just a matter of time.
  • jerry scharf_2
    jerry scharf_2 Member Posts: 414
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    Let's not ride too high in the saddle

    Remember, there are probably more dollars lost and damage done by unscrupulous contractors to homeowners than homeowners taking contractors. So every time you get all cranked up about the $1000 you may lose in comparison to the $50 shoplifter, remember there are people who get hit for tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. They spread a distrust that taints everyone in the trades. You have to deal with this every time you deal with a customer, though it may never be spoken.

    As with everything, I believe you need to find a balance. You need to accept some level of being burned, it happens to us all. I sure don't like it when it happens to me and I try to get smarter each time, but I don't let it color my view of my customers or my business relationships.

    If at the end of the year I had a good year, it's time to let the annoyances pass even when there is some pain. The Jews have a week of atonement at the end of their year, where you focus on how you have not been your best and seek to make it right. I think that is the right spirit for life.

    jerry
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    What??????????????????

    You said "You need to accept some level of being burned" Why in the world would you say that? They are theives just like the shoplifter no different. I will never accept being burned by anyone. I never forget and they never burn me twice. Now I can post them at Chitlist.com and they won't burn my friends. Now if you are dealing with a deadbeat contractor why in the world would you accept being burned by them? NEVER ACCEPT IT. All you do is let them get away with it so they can burn someone else. Yes I have been burned by other contractors and I will be reporting contractors to Chitlist too. Why are you trying to make this contractor against homeowner?

    John Ruhnke

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • jerry scharf_2
    jerry scharf_2 Member Posts: 414
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    there is a cost to being \"right\"

    John,

    I stick by what I said.

    Will this site really be effective? How many people do you expect to post per year? What is the likelyhood that that person will come to someone else on the site within 5-10 years?

    Dave Yates has a great story about a part he ordered and never got paid for. He keeps it on the shelf to remind him not to make that mistake again. That's much more useful than listing the person as a deadbeat for not paying for the item. The question always comes down to how each of us act and where we put our energy. IMO, Chitlist seems like the wrong place to put your energy.

    I did some computer security consulting, and some of my perspective comes from that. First, the only way never to get your computer broken into is to make it unusable. Second, you have to do a clear analysis of what the real risks are. I've never had a customer that wasn't shocked when I did this. Never had a customer get more than 1 of my top three corporate risks. They were worried about tens of thousands of dollars, and I was seeing risks in the hundreds of millions!

    To me this is the same. Are you better off worrying about losing say a thousand dollars a year of non-payments or 10 or 20 grand on incorrectly charging for your work? How do you manage your investment in inventory assets against the need for the right part, right now?

    jerry
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Are you afraid of the list?

    Are you afraid of the list? Maybe you didn't pay a contractor in full and you don't want to end up on the list. Chitlist is up. All of that legal mumbo jumbo is there problem not yours. Lets try and make it work, make Chitlist strong so that they can afford good lawyers. They are going to need them.

    JR

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • jerry scharf_2
    jerry scharf_2 Member Posts: 414
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    character assisnation is not necessary

    John,

    Yeah, right. It will be a frosty day in Dante's inferno before I show up there. I pay everything by the 10th or on a credit card. Try to pay my contractors within 5 days, they don't need to be my bank. In return, they take care of me. Once I tried rolling over a charge on my credit card. Didn't like it and haven't done it for 20 years.

    Thanks for playing.

    jerry
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,538
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    Another consideration, John.

    You have a link from all of your posts in this thread to your Find a Pro ad. Any potential customer who visits here may decide that you might be a problem for them if there is any sort of disagreement on the job. It could cost you a lot of potential business down the road. Keep in mind that all of this stuff goes into the archives.

    Just some food for thought.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Ken_8
    Ken_8 Member Posts: 1,640
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    Hey Jack,

    There's no "other" questions, really.

    The credibility of those who are listed in FAC (my peers in a much larger sense than Chitlist's unknowns) is not perfect, but it certainly is not the yellow pages either! I would suggest the group who advertises in FAC are the cream of the crop by way of their association with Dan, me and even you (;-o)!

    If any of the guys within 50 miles tells me a deadbeat's name, I'd use due caution and probably simply work with the client on a COD basis.

    Where's the problem in that?

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  • John R. Hall
    John R. Hall Member Posts: 2,246
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    Two sites you DON'T want to be on

    Consumers can take potshots at anyone and damage their reputations by posting at complaints.com or ripoffreport.com. I'm sure that are some businesses listed there that were barbequed unjustly. If a person has a beef, they can do a lot of damage.
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Bad experience..............

    Dan,

    Because of my growing family I needed to put a addition on my house. In may 2004 I paid Petrocelli Construction $12,400.00 as a 20% down payment for some work. He promised to start in a week. It is now January 2005 and he has not started yet. I am still paying off on the $12,400.00, a year later, every month and I have nothing to show for it. I turned Petrocelli into the police. The police contacted him three times with no reply. Now they will put a warent out for his arrest. He did an addition on my neighbors house and did a great job. But now he is stiffing me. I never did anything bad to him. I just don't want Petrocelli Construction to hurt anyone else. It is hard enough for me to earn a living and I didn't need this. I don't care what anyone thinks of me. All I care about is that other people don't get taken advantage of like I have been. If homeowners hate me then so be it.

    John Ruhnke

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Could cost world billions............

    What Petrocelli did to me could cost the world billions of dollars in fuel. I find it hard lately to come up with spare inventing dollars. I am slower at progressing with the Overall Efficiency Project. I should join ASHRAE and go to Orlando in a couple of weeks but haven't signed up because I am scared of getting in to dept further. That means I won't learn as much about Energy Efficiency as I should.

    John Ruhnke

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    Glad to hear that............

    I'm glad to hear that you pay regular. I'm sorry for that Comment I was out of line.

    JR

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
    I am the walking Deadman
    Hydronics Designer
    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • jim_14
    jim_14 Member Posts: 271
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    Petrocelli from NJ?

    Is the guy from New jersey???
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    No.....................................

    He is not from Jersey,

    You know what, The jury is still out on Petrocelli Con. I first need to find out why he can't pay. Is he in real financial trouble that he just can't handle things. Maybe he lost his shirt on a job, or is in the hospital. Maybe he has a sick kid in the hospital I don't know. I haven't heard from him and I won't post him to Chitlist until I hear all the details. I won't post his address here either, not yet.

    JR

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    I am the walking Deadman
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    Hydronics is the most comfortable and energy efficient HVAC system.
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
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    and...the chickens come home to roost...........................

    so said Malcolm X. Hmmmm could be a useful tool. Mad Dog

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
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    No problem

    in what you just said, Ken.

    I was questioning whether, as you suggested, Dan should start a "Deadbeat" section.

    As far as FAC, your peers, there have been posts on this site where customers who have used the service have not been satisfied with their contacts with FAC's.

    Whose right or wrong would be next to impossible for Dan or any of us to decide.

    This site works great without a hall of shame or a deadbeat section but in the end it's creator has the final say and we all chose, by our participation, to accept it or not.

    As far as Chitlist, hey more power to them but I still insist there is ALWAYS two sides to every story.

    Jack
  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
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    Hey MD,

    are you speaking Weezbo? :-)
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
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    Nope.................................. just in general , Jackie

    All I say is this: Walk in the shoes of a plumbing/heating contractor for atleast a week....not 8 hours a day....24/7 baby!,,,because that is what it is all about...it doesnt end at 7pm.....Look, we are all homeowners....so, we know what it is like to be screwed by unsavory and unscrupulous contractors - me included! However, HOW MANY of you "armchair" heating groupies really have been on the business side of being screwed? We all share common ground as homeowners that have been screwed over, but you really have to do what we do to know what we are talking about. I'll tell you this!!!!!!! I am as honest as the day is long...work my arthritic hands to the bone everyday and ALWAYS!!!!!give people more than a fair shake.. Most people are decent, but the 10% can make a man miserable. Don't focus on them you say?????? easier said than done....when these pests call you 10 times a day for things you thought were already clear - even in writing...the pager going off for NON-EMERGENCIES. People that decide NOT to pay...even after they signed and wrote you a check. Its harder than ANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of you could ever imagine unless you have done it for at least a few years. Now, this is coming from a "contractor" who does the right thing, ALWAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! returns calls..NEVER screwed ANYONE in his life...is not perfect, but will NEVER leave you stranded. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
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    Hey Jack.....come out with it.........................

    have you been "screwed" by one of our own? Stop beating around the bush. If a "board" was set up, would you like to be the head arbiter? Just curious. Mad Dog

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
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    Sorry if

    I hit a nerve Matt, but are you for or against the Chitlist?

    By the way, does my 13 years of 24/7 before going into engineering and estimating qualify to "walk in your shoes"?

    It must have been a lucky 13 too, as there were NO bad debts in the last seven and less than ten in the first six.

    On your side, really.

    Jack
  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
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    Great Rational.......Jerr! (Seinfeld refer.)

    I guess we aren't as saavy business people as we should be,....but it is hard to "write off" getting stiffed on RIGHT-FULLY DUE $$$$$$...Find a Balance you say??????? I guess that same bad attitude should carry the day when we need to pay our insurance, supply house bills, and taxes. Critcize us all you want, but the VAST !!!!!!!! majority of contractors (Non-wallies and contractors in general NOT included) who lurk around these WALLS ARE intelligent, conscientious, and above ALLL HONEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Like John, I take being screwed out of money that is rightfully owed - personally...it is nothing something that can be "written off" sorry dude. Mad Dog

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
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    If you can't figure out where I come down

    on the issue I don't know what to tell you. So, Jack, enlighten us....all those years (was it as a contractor???you didn't say...exacxtly?)and no "bad debt".....maybe so, but c'mon..share the secret of vetting out the bad ones....will you??? And, while you are at it....why (if you actually were a p/h contractor) did you pack it in??? all ears????Mad Dog

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
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    In the mood

    your in? Take off the prosecutors hat and some day we'll talk lead bends, pumping away and raising kids.

    Jack
  • Bill Nye_2
    Bill Nye_2 Member Posts: 538
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    mAD dOG

    I worked on a job just after I went into business and hired my first employee. I paid all the workers comp and insurances out of pocket. This was a big remodel job for a Doctor and I needed the help to finish and was counting on the money.

    The Doc screwed every single subcontractor! Just because he could! He told me he already had more lawyers than I could ever afford. The painter sued him in court and won, I was a witness for the painter.

    The one that knocked me out of the saddle was the guy that went belly up building the dream home. It took it for 20 thousand and couldn't go on. I gave up and got a job.

    The best one, the one I still get mad about, the land lady who was chapter 11 and was in foreclosure, called me to install a water heater for the then pregnant tennant.[what a ploy] I never had a clue until I got the letter from the lawyer. I would have had to lose a days pay to appear in court 100 miles away and not get all but a few cents on the dollar. I was told if I ever contacted this person I would be in contempt and could be arrested on various charges.

    Slimeballs and beaters, I've had my share. It is rarely ever the working man who beats you, in my experience the worse payers [slowest] are the ones who have it, Doctors and lawyers. I know not all of them fall into this category
  • bob young
    bob young Member Posts: 2,177
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    12 k robbery

    i trust you have a legal signed contract. i trust if you gave the man 12 k you know where he resides. i would go there and either be leaving with my cash or a damn good explanation as to why the man is stealing 12 k from me. i work real hard for that kinda cash , i might give it away but i would not have it stolen from me without serious reaction.
  • John Ruhnke
    John Ruhnke Member Posts: 882
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    I did the only thing i could do....................

    I had him arrested. It is Larceny. The police handle it for free. If I tried to go through the civil courts it would cost me $5000 in legal fees. He is most likely going to declare bankruptcy. So I would have gotten less then the cost of the lawyer. Maybe while he sits in jail he'll wonder how come I didn't go to civil court route like everyone else.

    JR

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  • Mad Dog
    Mad Dog Member Posts: 2,595
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    Ok, hat's off,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I was fresh from a Deadbeater

    yesterday as a matter of fact. In all sincerity, I would love to hear your story. Mad Dog

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