Webster blog continued, P. Linhardt

Dave Meers

1/26/05

I had fun teaching the apprentices at the union hall last night, I think only one snoozed off. Most of them haven't seen the inside of a boiler room yet, but we must keep trying to educate the young ones.

Back to the Webster system and how do we adapt modern equipment to older systems. The Webster vent trap is different from the modern day main air vent, like a Gorton or a Hoffman. The Webster and modern vents both have a float feature that shuts off the vent to prevent water from escaping if the boiler pressure rises too high. However, the modern vent will have a thermostatic feature that shuts off the vent to prevent steam from escaping the system. We don't want that steam to get out of the pipes, do we? The Webster vent had no such feature. If one or some of the steam traps at the radiators or end of steam mains is leaking through, that steam will come roaring out the Webster vent. This was the problem that Vic ny was having at the church. He was describing a boiler room that was filling up with steam escaping through the Webster vent. The church needs trap maintenance.

Vic's Webster vent was special. Remember Webster factory representatives selected every piece of equipment in the steam system. They selected that particular size Vent trap to match the system size. Then they went a step further and added two extra vent valves to it. This makes it a custom factory special. Sorta like dropping the 426 in a '67 Pontiac Tempest. Or more specifically, putting straight tubes on the exhaust manifold of that big V-8 to get the exhaust out of the engine in a hurry, anything to increase horsepower. Adding those vents valves to the vent trap tripled the venting capacity of that system. No air was going to back up in that return line, air was going to flow with no restriction. Pretty cool. Why did they do this? I love to speculate on the Deadmen's motives, what do you think?

You can get info on the Webster system at the library tab here at heatinghelp.com. Dan has been so generous to supply this to everyone for free. There is a ton of stuff there, check it out. Go to library, then to steam systems, then to Webster, then to page 17 for the vent trap and boiler return trap info.

Anyone that has any ideas or experiences they would like to share, please feel free to comment. I would love to hear them, and it might help others on the wall.

I'll ramble on about the boiler return trap next chance I get.

Best regards, Pat

john_27

thanks pat for the webster discussion...I just saw one in newtown square,pa.....john

Dave Meers

questions for John

Hi John,

Glad you liked it, I'll try to do more.

Was the one in Newton Square still using the Webster vent valve with the ball and cap? Or had someone come along and put up a main air vent so the owner could put off doing trap maintenance? I'm curious.

Best regards, Pat

John Shea

Hi Patrick

I've been maintaining a 1920s Webster Modulation System for a while in an apartment building my family owns.

We've owned it for about 20 years, and I believe the Webster vent valves were removed prior to our purchase. As far as I know, the only modifications to the system were the replacement of those with Hoffman #76s (three vent traps), the addition of main air vents (my father did when he bought the building) and of course a new gas-fired Peerless boiler.

It really is a neat system to 'get to know'. I was in the basement feeling dry returns for steam when I took a CLOSER look at a ceiling-hung radiator valve and sure enough (under a few coats of paint) there hung a Webster Modulation valve in all its' glory. Wooden handle and all.


We've had a history of uneven heat in the building and recently I decided to do some maintainance/troubleshooting.

I increased significantly the venting at the end of the mains which surprisingly had little, if any impact. Seven Gorton #2s replaced seven Hoffman 76s.

More recently, and with seemingly much greater impact (as far as we can tell so far because of other conditions; programmable t-stat changes, significant weather changes, etc.)I added a 4 vent manifold to the vent traps, quadrupling the venting capactity at the end of the dry returns.

Do you think I could be masking the source of a different problem here as well?

I don't think the wet returns have been flushed in a long long time. I'm saving that job for Spring/Summer of course.

At any rate, the system's running better than it has in years and I'm having a good time learning about it.

I look forward to reading others experiences with these old-timers.

John Carver

Webster Modulation System

My son purchased an older home built in 1921. I believe it has a Webster Modulation steam heating system. The attached picture shows the Webster vent trap. Condensate returns come in from left and right and returns to the boiler through the pipe on the bottom. At the top is a 1/2" pipe with a Barnes & Jones radiator trap. This was added later. Other than a few radiator vents, this is the only way that air has of escaping from the system. There is, and as far as I can tell, never was an F&T trap at the end of the mains. There are two main steam lines that travel in opposite directions around the perimeter of the basement. They meet at the far end of the basement where they join a third pipe (dry return) that goes back to the boiler.

When we started, heat distribution was uneven, the boiler room was a sauna, and the heating bills were through the roof. We replaced all the steam traps, removed the radiator vents, cleaned and flushed the boiler, and got a feed-water leak under control. That has helped significantly, but I think we need more air venting. When the system started up, you could hear the air whistling through the radiator trap, so I tried removing it. That helped get air out of the system faster, but I doubt we should leave it with just an open pipe permanently. I'm also thinking we should add another vent on the dry return, just a few feet from where the two mains join.

I could use some advice about the types and locations for these vents.

BTW, most of the radiators still have the original Webster modulation valves with the wooden handles. What makes these valves different from other types?

Steamhead

When I work on these systems

I always end up increasing the vent capacity. Venting for coal firing was in many cases not adequate for oil or gas firing. With coal the fire built up slowly to its full size, but with oil or gas it comes on at full force. This creates steam much faster and the air has to escape faster as a result.

The whistling noise you hear may not be coming from just the B&J trap. Underneath the tapping on the top is a float-operated valve whose seat is maybe 1/4-inch diameter- certainly not the full size of the tapping. This valve had the job of closing the vent if the water backed up into the trap.

In the photo of the vent trap there are two plugs on the left front at top and bottom. These were for a sight glass if the operator wanted one. If you remove the top plug you can install a vent there, bypassing the internal float valve. I like to use the Gorton #2 vent on this type of system (as I do on most) because of its high capacity. The #2 has its own float so it will also close against water.

The steam mains on this system are vented into the dry (overhead) return thru standard thermostatic radiator traps. If the mains are slow to vent you can either increase the size of these traps or replace them with main vents properly sized. Starting from the moment the boiler begins to send steam into the pipes, your mains should be full of steam in a minute or two, and the steam should reach the ends of all the mains at about the same time. This way, steam is available to every radiator at the same time, which helps all rooms to heat evenly.



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Dave Meers

mo venting, mo better

Hi John,

You don't need an F&T trap on the Webster system, as it was originaly designed. I agree wuth steamhead that the venting can and should be increased. The original design is for the vent tapping to be open to the atmosphere. I don't think you need to add the vent out in the system, but do add it back in the boiler room as steamhead suggests.

Hope this helps. Thanks for the post and the nice photo.

Best regards, Pat