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CO not lighter than AIR
Comments
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jp
Science is not crap and its is also not absolute. Any scientific study can be slanted based on the goals of the scientist. When things are taken totally out of context they do not apply. To say that something heated to 300 or 400 degrees mixes evenly in a room(CO from combustion)just doesn't work. What happens over time is too late for the occupants of the building. Running a pipe from the mechanical room out the roof is sometimes called a chimney and sometimes it is called a combustion air. I am sure either can be proven in a scientific lab but once installed in the field the pipe retains no knowledge of this. I can scientifically prove it is easier to pull a rope than push it. I can also prove it is just as easy to push as it is to pull. It just a matter of what results we may want. When it comes to someones health or life only reality and existing conditions matter. Your input is appreciated because it gets everyone thinking. But the confrontation comes in when those with no experience state that those with experience don't know what they are doing or talking about. We are in the business of saving lives, not debating the laws of science.0 -
*~/:)
My school motto is "deeds not words". i could just about divine yours was "patient buh persistent " :)if not "tenatiously persistent"
.............i dont know jim even to communicate with him on the internet however,some times mr. nice guy just dont get the job done so a creative voice that rubs everyone the wrong way ,will at least wake them up and the apathy be replaced with some sort of focus .....Good science comes from good observation... 0 -
jp
I tell all my students to not believe me but to test and prove it to themselves. To believe me or to doubt me without actually testing is a waste of time.0 -
not me
((((To say that something heated to 300 or 400 degrees mixes evenly in a room(CO from combustion)just doesn't work.)))
I certain am not saying this, not sure where you got this from?
read my 1st post again. I am truly starting to think you've totally missunderstoood me from the start of all this on that wacko CO2 post.0 -
the whole point!
""""Talk to us JP and educate us but understand there are some real sharp minds here on the Wall who may know a lot more than I do who may challenge you.""""
that was the whole point, except the "educate us part", not my intention nor my desire. I hoped someone would challenge me, I'm here to learn too, but instead I get bashed because I do not agree with tim & jim......
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i would truely like to encourage all of you to read...
the PDF on the Quad-check (google search) to me it carries this topic out a ways further. it takes a while to read as it is 9 pages long...the bibliography alone is enlightening. i am off to work buh i would be interested in disscusing Gautier and Grubers Generating explanations of devise behaviour using modeling and causal ordering....as it relates to this topic.0 -
One has to realize that there is a vast difference in the mixing of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and other gases in the out of doors and that inside a building.
Once saw a video that Minnegasco made concerning the number of CO alarms that had been responded to that were declared nuisance alarms. Using a smoke generator in the attached garage it was found that smoke pulled into the house from the garage without any appliances running. I have always wondered if the smoke dispersal would have been accelerated if the appliances.
Someone asked where does the carbon dioxide come from? It comes from combustion appliances. If vents are plugged carbon dioxide along with CO is spilled. The return ductwork on the majority of residential homes is not sealed. Operation of furnaces for extended lengths of time even the blower portion only for the air conditioning season can and has depressurized the basement area backdrafting natural vent water heaters.
Each and every home presents its own unique problems. And I can attest these types of problems are not instructed in most vocational or community college courses. I wish that I had attended Jim's or Rudy's classes when I first started in the HVAC trade.0 -
CO is bad
ok kids, so don't do CO, when it comes to CO................
Just say NO!0 -
I like that Geno,
should be, could be the marching song!
"Just say no to CO!"
"Hell no, we won't CO!"
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I understand jp
Your 1st post's content and intent is clear to me, and has been from the start.
Unfortunately, you got the "how dare you question ME" response so frequently seen here on "The Wall".
You asked how and for a clearer explanation and got a bunch of grief. Too bad. Maybe more education could happen with civil exchange and listening instead of breast-beating and crowing.
My take on CO detector placement is it should be 5ft or higher. CO must mix, but at first it is released into the building generally hotter than ambient air, so therefore rises. It eventually mixes and settles as it cools. Make sense to you ? Maybe that explanation has it's flaws, but it's how I see it.
Now I'll probably take my turn at the whipping post 0 -
yep
makes sense to me.0 -
YOUI!!!!! Drew first blood
mad dog
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YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Exactky Mr Hall! MD
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Ruler? Genghis Khan? Hirohito?
Its ....RULE, Mr Science! Not Ruler....I thought you were edu-macated. The Nazis and Taliban burned the books - something I would never support. I'll take an experienced heating veteran over a book in a cold boiler room anyday. You would too, after your BOOKS didn't tell you what was wrong. Mad Dog
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CO is not bad................................................
...in the death chamber...its actually the perfect euthanizer. Mad Dog
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Or
"Look to where the finger is pointing, not at the finger"
Leo G
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I've been reading your comments
JP.
What EXACTLY would you like to know?
Mark H
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Can you post a link to what you are referring to
Weez,
I poked what I thought I should into google, and got out a paper from stanford about some theories related to automatic generation of documentation. I doubt that's what you were referring to, so I'd love to read what you've got.
jerry
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Here's another one, coming at ya!
Hi-ho, hi-ho, I really hate CO,
with a hi-hi-hi(CO2) and a ho-ho-ho (O2) hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho
CO, CO, it really has to go, you can't be safe and you'll end up a waif, hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho!
Gentlemen how much time do you want to spend on this?
You're for the most part all believers, it's called preaching to the choir, cool it a little!
Go tell the world, here it's really getting old hat and boring!!! JMO!
The man (jp) asked a question and whoof we're all over him like flies on ......
No one will ever be sold by fear and inuendo, FACT!
Personally I believe in all of this and KNOW that low-level CO detectors are the best.
But, I'd still rather look at Meredith Viera pushing Kidde then even pass a glance at all of you guys :-)0 -
debate, the dirty word
your right mad dog. I challenged "your expert" to debate. if all you ever do is except what is told to you, you never learn.....all my questions were answered by the way.0 -
mark?
mark, I ve read & read my 1st post. I 'm not sure why the questions there are hidden.
anyway between jim davis and tim McElwain all my questions have been answered.
you guys speak a different chemical langauge with combustion and maybe CO. I didn't realize the word "ultimate" meant so much in the phase 'ultimate CO2 production.'
in the chemistry world where I have been, CO's specific gravity would not be the reason for its behavior in the room, some here seem to agree with me.
I feel the thread is dead.0 -
rule, ruler big deal
guess you are smarter than me......
so you are in some basement, got your notebook computer sitting on the munchkin, its lunch time so you watching a dvd movie from your notebook, talking to your wife on your cell phone while a 747 passes over head and the space shuttle is repairing sattelites and you tell me books have a limited potential? are telling me all this came about from "on the job training" and seminars?
books teach you the fundamentals of how all boilers work, its up to you to use that knowledge to fix the boiler, you have it backwards.
books are not step by step instruction!0 -
Senor Belafonte says--
C-C-0
C-C-C-O
C/O COME, STAY OUTA MY HOMMME,
C/O COME AND STAY OUTA MY HOME
COME MR.SERVICE MAN SET IT UP,
C/O DON'T GO INTO MY HOME,
MY KIDS AND I DON'T WAN TO SLEEP,
C/O COME AND STAY OUTA MY HOME
COME MR. SERVICE MAN CHECK MY CHIMNEY,
C/O COME AND STAY OUTA MY HOME
EVERYTHING CHECKED OUT, I BREATH EASY,
C/O COME AND STAY OUTA MY HOME
GET YOUR SYSTEM CHECKED OUT, IT'S SO EASY!!
SO C/O WON'T GO INTO MY HOME
SO C/O WON'T COME AND GO INTO MMMYYYYY HHHOOOOOMMMMMMEEE.
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Geno!
Want to take this routine on the road?
It might finally be the way to sell education on this subject.0 -
This is the point, there are a Great many variables,
involved in the equasions. any one minor technicality boom ! Everything needs to be recalculated due to the changes bought about by integer X of parameter Y or derivantZ on an on......Many many years ago a young man set out to study and understand knowledge according to the educators and vast amount of science available to his world at that time....he was still struggling at about the age of 44 and had studied with every teacher of every book except one....so he went to study with him...after 4 years he said that he had some questions and began asking a large volume of questions ,each one answered yet leading to his next question...after 1280 pages of questions he asked another ,which he felt if answered he would be at the teachers understanding and be able to fully realize all there was to be known.....and the gist of this answer to this question was any analysis is limited by the observer and thier subjective point of view and like it or not the very questions which he was analysing to find the specific chapter, verse, law ,support for that law ,support for this variable and that was the very process that was obscuring his full understanding......now that may sound like a funny kind of reasoning yet ,not really....there are so many variables lets say , that one would come to the idea were they lucky enough similar to what Jim and Tim are saying even though you trust the science of the test other people have done, you must also do your own tests and describe to the best of your abilities what you have observed ....when things dont go like they should then you may be very certain some new wrench is in the works and everything you thought you knew has been changed by that variable....this is called the dotrine of individious distinctions . i see nothing wrong particularily discussing ideal gas laws or anything about physics or mathamatics or which way the wind blows ...however , to make life some what easier the experience of burner techs is very,very real...so while you are told what sounds like "white man speaks with forked tounge"procedure, it is from thier actual experience in life....and it isnt something that should be disregarded as witchcraft or voodoo.In science one would simply undertake to look for what outside variable was the cause of the anomaily and structure a hypothisis and solve for the variables .the reason that i think we should put one co detector over the toaster is that from time to time we can test and be sure it is indeed working you dont have to agree with me...honestly .:)if jim says put one at eye level he has a reason for it.if someone else says i think it works best on the ceiling ,on the floor ,on a nightstand near your head while you are sleeping ,it is because they have a Reason for it...that you can prove that there are indeed certain variables that would not indicate that their observation and reason is capeable of error or fault doesnt necessasairly mean for the most part that it is totaly without merit.attack of the man while it may work as a solution might not be the best logical solution. CO is a real danger ,nothing i have studied to date will "wish it away" so, that our methods and practices bought about by our own personal experience and study, may not appear to work in all instances with 100 percent infalability,doesnt mean it is a bunch of nonsence .i think what has happened is similar to do nothing THEN we wont get anything wrong! my idea is the exact opposite, if you arent making mistakes from time to time you cant be doing much right . and no, at this time, i am not into an argument on the dispensation of grace. 0 -
yup...best place...thats where we pilots go for them...
if we dont want to end up like the laidy and child that took off from farmindale,LI and died over the sound, and then plane came to rest in a field north of boston 4hrs later after running out of fuel - completely unscratched - autopsy was easy -
this is why cessnas dont come with autoland systems, just leave'em alone they land themselves
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boy that post is full of errors, geeze....read up on your mechaincs there jim
((( Any scientific study can be slanted based on the goals of the scientist.)))
this is not true "scientific method".
you set out to prove theories wrong, not right. when it can not be proven wrong its generally excepted as correct.
by the way, how does one push something with a rope? please prove that one to me.
(((But the confrontation comes in when those with no experience state that those with experience don't know what they are doing or talking about.))))
thats the basis of science, you do not have to go around and test everything single thing. newtons law of gravity works everywhere, kinetic energy laws work everywhere and on and on.
you can surely test,test test, and fix problems, that does not entitle you to be the sole sourse of knowledge. frankly you made harsh statements denouncing basic chemistry then refuse to back up those claims. at the same time you are debunking stuff you have no experience with.
by the way, you have answered all my questions.0 -
Sure
I got a set of bongo's.0 -
Just more than Aeromedix for CO Experts
Have compiled a list of sites that offer low level alarms at http://www.essex1.com/people/mechacc/co_low_level_monitors.htm0 -
JP
To my untrained eye, it doesn't appear you are looking for answers. Rather it appears that you are looking for an argument or a fight. A little courtesy and respect goes a long way. But then again, what do I know.....??? -DF
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No! just couldn't resist
I'm an avid and voracious reader...gots lots of old books and I'm always buying new ones.......usually have a 4 books going at a time. However, you reallly don't know how CO behaves until you test - on a regular basis with expensive equip., like the Bacharach or Testo. Do you test, JP ? Just curious. Mad Dog
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YEAH!
Take it to the streets!0 -
lighter...shmighter...at the end, you'll be just as dead!!!
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Or if it is low level very sick if exposed over a long period of time.0 -
a fetus, in the first trimester, can be damaged, just by...
the co produced - if the woman sands by a large cold pot on a range with low grates,
cold surface impingment, gas condenses, then flashes, but at that point, there is not enough O2 to go around - net result, lots of CO!!!
set it up, take a reading - you will be amazed - at what your stupid range can do, my new GE range, which already has tall grates, still has no less than 3 CO warnings in the manual!!!0 -
Excellent post Kal
Spot on!!
Mark H
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You know plenty, Mr Foley and you are a Gent
I'll deal with this fraudulent, antagonistic rabble-rouser. Mad Dog
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Let me throw in my experiance with CO last week JP.
We were getting a 75000 square foot commercial building ready to pour the floor. Inside running was 1 full size diesel grader,2 diesel skid loaders, 4 diesel man lifts, 2 diesel light plants,2 diesel rollers. Building was heated with a 3MBtu temporary propane heater with blower (no CO contribution from the furnace). All this equipment had been running before we could get some roof hatches open to get ventilation going. The CO monitor was reading 45 PPM at 6' when we went up on the lift to open the hatches it was 85 PPM at the ceiling 40' up. Once the hatches were opened it did not take long to get the CO down to 13 PPM.
There is alot of variables here to cause confection,stratification,hot exhaust gases from equipment, 45* ground Temp, Furnace blowing in hot air with intake coming from outside. Building had temporary sealing of overhead doors and roof hatches. So building was quite leaky. I only had the CO monitor so I don't know about the CO2.
Just an experience I had, thought I would add it to the discussion.
Gordy
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Forget Jp, your the obnoxoius one here, CHUCKLES
REal world = nonsense. Ok Dude, maybe YOU need some very berry Kool-aid. Mad Dog
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Neither do I
I'm fairly well-educated, well-read, and read constantly.. I was only saying, there comes a time when you've got to put away the books and do what works. Glad your buddy was ok. Mad Dog
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This discussion has been closed.
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