Near Boiler Piping Question aka Wet Steam

Bruce Labitt

I recently had a Burnham V85 boiler installed in my home. It was an emergency job, installed in early December. Ever since the install we now have all the hallmarks of wet steam. There have been flushes, skimming and other activities to try to quiet the system down. I suspect it is due to the near boiler piping not meeting the manufacturers instructions. I have not finished paying for this job yet, so I hope I still have a little leverage with the installer. The installer has been back many times and is scratching his head. Naturally, when I mentioned that I thought the install did not follow the mfr guidelines I got a comment that "we always do them that way, that can't be it". I have no idea how to proceed. All I'd like is a fully working system. I appreciate that this may be hard to do, but I think I paid for a working system.

So is the plumbing so far off that I should insist on this rework? Should I give up and replumb myself in the summer? Or is this really asking for trouble? Attached are a couple of photos of the install. The last pic is part of the install page from the manual. I added the insulation. Actually seemed to make it worse... Of note is that there is a mix of copper and iron near the boiler and from the interconnect between the header and the mains.

Now that I just looked at the pic's I see the pigtail is mounted wrong. I'll fix that today!

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Edit: Modified photos.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

In your first picture

it's hard to tell if those are two risers coming up from the boiler and combining or if that pipe is heading back to an equalizer and Hartford Loop.

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Paul Mitchell_2

IMHO We would have used both taps off the top of the boiler. Also we would have split the tee where the mains come in and ran them individually into the header after the risers. We probably would have doen a drop header just because we get a little extra ht and easier to pipe for pitch.

gerry gill

I'm with Paul on this -

the boiler should use all tappings..the risers should be full size MINIMUM..the header should be the size that can accomodate the square inch area of all take offs, MINIMUM. I would have dropped the header also..my old hoffman handbook from the thirties actually states in black and white to use one pipe size LARGER than the pipe that would accomadate the square inch area of the take offs for the header..velocity control and water seperation was what they were going for.

Bruce Labitt

Only one riser

For the boiler. The mfr recommends two. As I recall from Dan's book, this should reduce the steam velocity from the boiler. Lower escape velocity means drier steam, right?

The question really is, do you think it is possible to get the installer to do it the "right" [recommended] way or is this a lost cause? If it is a lost cause, got any tips on doing black iron? Never done it before. Does not look conceptually hard but I'm sure there is a lot of work involved.

Bruce Labitt

Hartford Loop Equalizer is too small too,

Or at least it is one size small 1.25 inch diameter, rather than the recommended 1.50 inch. Could that cause additional "wetness" to the steam?

gerry gill

sure,

it can back water up into the header..there is a lot more water in a header than most people realize..heck, thats why its there..the equalizer has as one of its roles, to drain all this water expeditiously, some of the old books show the equalizer at header size till it got below the water line..

gehring_3

It is definitely piped incorrectly as they also forgot to install an offset (min. 18") from the risers out of the boiler over to the header.

I did a V85 and I used two(2) 2" risers with two 2" x 18" offsets going over to a 3" header. At the end of the 3" header I have a 3" x 2" reducing elbow so that 2" pipe drops down into the equalizer. By offsetting to the right (facing the boiler) you can drop your equalizer down into the Hartford Loop in one straight shot, no 45's or bends.

If you call the Tech. Dept. at Burnham they can fax you a more specific 2 riser piping diagram that shows all of this exaxctly and even provides a parts list so you know which size and how many fitting to purchase to pipe it correctly. What they did may be fine for some other boiler make/model but it is definitely not compliant with the Burnham specs.

And yes, the pigtail is so obviously wrong you have to wonder if the installer really understands steam at all. Just because that's the way they have done it before does not make it right. I could repeat the same mistake over a 30 year period and that wouldn't make it any less wrong.

Paul Pollets

Sorry...

your boiler is piped incorrectly and it will cause problems. Glen Stanton from Burnham usually comments, and you may want to post a note to him. Since you've posted the actual piping instructions from Burnham, it doesn't take an expert to see the variances. Black pipe should be used exclusively on steam, and the pipe sizing and header sizes are critical to dry steam. You can ask the mechanic to make corrections per the instructions, or pay another experienced steamfitter to do it right. I'm always concerned with the comment "that's the way we always do it..." What it really says is "everyone we do is wrong."

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Bruce Labitt

Can't quite visualize that piping...

Can you post a sketch or picture?

I've seen some drop headers, can that help me out? Seems like a lot of loss right at the boiler, but it sure seems like it would discard or shed a lot of water

Bruce Labitt

So things appear wrong - what to do about it?

There seems to be quite a few professionals on this board, so this is a question for them. You guys work hard for a living, heck, I sure couldn't get the boiler into my basement. My system was plumbed in incorrectly it appears. How would you respond to a HO who needs to get things fixed right? Particularly if you had made a mistake or not picked a good way of implementing something. How could I ask you to fix it? I don't want to stiff the installer, just like to fix the problem properly. [Don't be shy - I'm sure at least one point in your career you had jobs you weren't proud of.]

Or should I do it myself? My Dad gave me a pipe vise and a RIGID threader that is good for iron up to 2 inches in diameter.

Unknown

The

> There seems to be quite a few professionals on

> this board, so this is a question for them. You

> guys work hard for a living, heck, I sure

> couldn't get the boiler into my basement. My

> system was plumbed in incorrectly it appears.

> How would you respond to a HO who needs to get

> things fixed right? Particularly if you had made

> a mistake or not picked a good way of

> implementing something. How could I ask you to

> fix it? I don't want to stiff the installer,

> just like to fix the problem properly. [Don't be

> shy - I'm sure at least one point in your career

> you had jobs you weren't proud of.]

>

> Or should

> I do it myself? My Dad gave me a pipe vise and a

> RIGID threader that is good for iron up to 2

> inches in diameter.

tommyoil

You will NOT be stiffing the installer

He is stiffing you. You seem to be a reasonable person whos willing to work with your "pro". In light of your problems you should call him back, show him the MANUFACTURERS SPECS. and demand he come into compliance with what THEY want EXACTLY and not what "he has been doing for years". Also, make sure the rest of your system is up to par. Pipes pitched correctly ect. You paid him (for the most part) because he is a PROFESSIONAL. You leaned on him in a time of need and despite his best efforts, he has failed you miserably. Its obvious you seem to have a clue as to what the problem is. At this point it may be sour grapes (on his part) to call him in for repairs after you have given him several opportunities. Do/did you have a contract signed with him??? Was he the only game in town??? Where are you located?? In the name of decency (on your part) you might want to give him one more chance. Good luck!!

Unknown

The V85 requires only one

supply riser . They recommend twnning in the 2nd riser though . That said , we try to twin in both supplies and drop it down into a boiler main at least one size larger than 2 inch . We also try to drop the equalizer down full size at least part of the way . Ideally , where they connected the new piping to the old , they should have cut out that bull headed tee and ran those steam mains back separately to the boiler main . Do you have 2 separate return pipes ?

The pigtail is not mercury controlled so the pigtail isn't that bad a problem .

This is a pic of a V83 we installed a few years ago , before we started increasing the boiler main size and equalizer ell size . We had 2 steam mains teed in like yours does . We split them up and twinned them in at the boiler main .

The Burnham V8 is an excellent steam boiler when piped right . Good luck with the repipe .

gerry gill

there you go Bruce,

make it look like Rons picture and it will work.

Bruce Labitt

> He is stiffing you. You seem to be a reasonable

> person whos willing to work with your "pro". In

> light of your problems you should call him back,

> show him the MANUFACTURERS SPECS. and demand he

> come into compliance with what THEY want EXACTLY

> and not what "he has been doing for years". Also,

> make sure the rest of your system is up to par.

> Pipes pitched correctly ect. You paid him (for

> the most part) because he is a PROFESSIONAL. You

> leaned on him in a time of need and despite his

> best efforts, he has failed you miserably. Its

> obvious you seem to have a clue as to what the

> problem is. At this point it may be sour grapes

> (on his part) to call him in for repairs after

> you have given him several opportunities. Do/did

> you have a contract signed with him??? Was he the

> only game in town??? Where are you located?? In

> the name of decency (on your part) you might want

> to give him one more chance. Good luck!!




Stupidity on my part - no signed contract - it was an emergency replacement... I was worried about the house freezing. No, he wasn't the only show in town. He was the middle bid, with a history of being responsive to our heating needs. He also could squeeze in an installation in a few days [Saturday] when all the others had estimated install times of 2-3 weeks in the future. In December, in NH, 3 weeks is an unreasonable time to wait. The install was very neat and professional. Unfortunately it isn't quite right. At the time, I thought he was doing the right thing. It is only now, after many service calls and much water hammer, etc later AND finding this website AND reading Dan's books that I have to come to the conclusion that the install itself is amiss. [Research AFTER the job is like closing the barn doors after the animals have escaped!]

That said, how does one broach the subject gently to the installer?

Bruce Labitt

Is the drop header more effective

At drying out steam than Burnhams recommended 18" horizontal runs from the main risers? Lots more "plumbing loss", isn't it? I would imagine the drop header is good for water separation though.

What are the rules for the drop header? How many inches above the water line? How high should the main risers be?

Dave Bush

I didn't see anyone else mention this, but

I'm not overly fond of the bullheaded tee in the supply main.

That said, on an emergency changeout, if it was there, I most likely wouldn't spend the time to change it, but I would definitely make it a point to come back when the weather turned warm and split that out, and use two tees in a header and turn up into two ells, instead of that one tee heading both ways...

It's not a life-changing thing, but bullheading tees on steam isn't a good thing.

Also, I would definitely go with two supply risers into a full-sized header, which is probably, 2.5", but could be 3".

Slow your steam down and dry it out at the header, and you'll be very pleased with the system.

As far as having the original installer come back, well, I would've given you heat, then made it a point to tell you that there was more piping that was required ASAP, when you could do without heating for a day.

Don't forget a days' worth of boiler cleaning, too.

gerry gill

there really are not any other rules

for a drop header..the same rules apply as to header size, and up-side riser height as would apply if it were not dropped..you can go pretty low with it but most of us use a close nipple to make the drop..

Bruce Labitt

Thanks for the drop header \"rules\"

I hadn't seen any rules on drop headers. Gives me an idea on how to proceed.

Bruce Labitt

Bullhead tee

The installer probably mentioned it to me - and I probably ignored him. Things were pretty exciting at the time. I was cold, and at that moment I was spending $$$. In my clouded reasoning, I probably thought, hey if it isn't broken, don't fix it. If I am going to go to the effort of replumbing, I probably will replace it, since it does not appear to be good practice. Ah, the joys of old house ownership...

Unknown

Bruce

A couple of questions because it isn't clear in the photos. Is this system a Gravity return system meaning the horizontal supply main pitches downhill from the boiler to its remote points or is it a Counterflow system meaning the main pitches back toward the boiler? I can't see the equalizer and return piping in the photo either so that is difficult to comment on. What I do see clearly is the installers service sticker and I do have to say that out of fairness to him, that should have been blacked out.

Although the V85 can be piped with only one riser, common knowledge of steam systems and the manual states that two risers are preferred. Without seeing the back of the boiler, I can't comment on the equalizer, Hartford Loop and return piping. I see a lot of supply risers bullheaded into the supply mains like yours, but I always prefer to see two individual supply risers instead. As Ron Jr, stated, the pressuretrol is the non-mercury type so repiping the syphon (pigtail) is not a real big issue. Dropped headers always account for more forgiveness in both slowing the steam down and cutting out moisture, but are not required. Let me know which type of system you have and maybe we can make some sense of this while still being fair to the guy that put it in for you. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

Dave Bush

It won't cause system failure the way it's piped

But it definitely doesn't help the steam get where it's going in an efficient, direct manner.

I see that type of main alot, and always change them out if the customer doesn't insist on leaving it.

If repiping to a drop header, (Good idea, BTW.) then it would be pretty easy to chop that tee out and change to two 90s, and drop into the new header, especially if you have the tools to cut and thread the steel.

It's well worth it, IMO, to do everything by the book.

Everytime I'm tempted to let something slide that was "Wrong all along, but working, I think of Dan's Deadmen quote:

"A hundred years from now, they will gaze at my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me."

I'd like to think that will apply to everything I do. Follow the advice you've gotten, especially from Glenn Stanton, and you'll be fine.

BTW, I understand fully the "I need heat NOW" mode. But that doesn't mean it has to STAY like that.

Bruce Labitt

Glenn

This is a counterflow system. Actually it has an added wrinkle in that there are two radiators that are two pipe steam. One of the two radiators is always hot - the other doesn't fill up at the same rate. The main riser is 2 inch going to an elbow and then a tee. The portion of the T that is horizontal converts to copper [2"] and goes towards the back of the boiler. Then there is a reducing elbow to 1.25 inch copper connecting into the Hartford loop. The part of the T that goes vertical converts to copper 2" and eventually connects to the bullhead T in iron.

As for the photos, you are right. I'll try to edit them. It isn't my intent to slam anyone. I just want a working system again.

Unknown

Bruce

If this is a counterflow system, then it is advisable to have tees installed on both branches of the horizontal main to cut the returning condensate out of the main before it comes back into that bullhead tee. Otherwise the result will be hammer and probably lots of it.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

tommyoil

Gently

hand him the installation manual open to the page with the pictures of what the manufacturer wants the piping to look like. Then ask him if he is willing to comply with those instructions. Those pics are usually MINIMUM requirements that should never be deviated from otherwise you'll get exactly what you have now, a system that does not work properly and wastes fuel. I think the ball is fully in his court to make the corrections necessary for a peaceful nights sleep and PROPER boiler operation. He, like you, is probably a decent guy. Have one more talk with him and tell (dont ask)him what needs to be done. I think you have been pretty easy on him and understanding up until now. Time to get what you are paying for. Good luck.

jesse the great

bruse

you mentioned that you have 2 pipe steam and that 1 ov the rads are always hot , that a very good indication that the steam trap is faulty that could be bringing steam into the return and causing havick. let me know how that pans out

Unknown

Jesse

Actually, Bruce has identified this system as a Counterflow system and not a 2-pipe system. I have informed him in a post above that it is important to be able to cut out the condensate before it runss back and hits the hot header. In many of the older installs there was no header and the condensate ran right back into the boiler with no apparent problems.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

John Mehrtens

Did you have this system repiped yet? If not, you're going to be replacing the boiler's sleeve. Have someone repipe it at least to the mfgr's specs, get rid of the Tee and pipe down to the header after the connection to the boiler. Mind the 'A' dimension - you want nice dry heat heading into your piping.

Again, if you don't have this repiped and it's still causing a fuss, it's going to destroy that V85.

John Mehrtens

I don't want to be too up front, but if the system's making a fuss it's doing so for a very good reason.

Jaitch

Piping/Repiping Specs and ideas

Hello:

Right this minute my crew is involved in replacing and old steamer with a new high-efficency model. Every time we do this, the crew asks me how I want it installed. I open with installation manual to the diagram (or blow it up for them 200%) and say "like this." For the first few jobs they thought I knew nothing about steam, but they are learning I know more about steam than they give me credit for. My supervisor ALWAYS complains about the amount of time I put in to replace a steamer CORRECTLY.

May I suggest you approach the installer this way:

Thanks for getting me out of a jam in February, now that summer is here I think we should repipe the system correctly. I realize that you did your best in February to help me and I know you had other things to do, but we have time now (and I don't need the system) so maybe now's the time to replumb according to correct specs. ( I don't want any trouble THIS winter)

This MAY give your installer the chance to gracefully retouch this job with little or no hurt feelings, and it sounds like you're a nice enough guy to want to approach things this way.

Good Luck - JOHN