Code question...Robert O'Connor

Firedragon_4

Everyone I'm talking to (NFPA, IAPMO, BOCA, UL, TUV and ETL) is telling me that they want the 18" rule in private garages and the 8' rule in a public garage to stay.

However, keep in mind that codes are political (sic) and can change town-to-town and IMO that's too bad!

Paul Mitchell_2

Code question NJ...Robert O'Connor...everyone

Hello
Put in a hot water heater with our plumber the other day. It was in Brick, NJ. New water heater meeting new codes. The room it is in is off the garage but does not have a door that closes. Nor does it have a door from the water heater room to the house. So according to code it needs to be up 18". Well we both missed this, I guess because of the room off the garage. According to the inspector the code will change soon so the new water heaters do not have to be up off the floor. Also my plumber said many towns are allowing this. Any news or ideas. Anything I can refer to. We might have to purchase a whole new water heater because of height restrictions. If even a shorter one will fit. The boiler and HWH have been on the floor in this room for 25 years.
Any thoughts would be appreciated
Paul

Dave Yates (PAH)

according to Mike Gordon at BW

During the testing for FVIR technology development, they discovered the 18" height actually made things much worse. Instead of spilled gasolene starting a fire via flashover, the fumes built up and when they finally reached the ignition source, they had a major explosion instead.

However, it seems odd that with the FVIR water heaters, the requirement still stands. Stuposidly you can spill gas right next to one and although you'll get ignition inside the combustion chamber, it's not supposed to be able to flashover into the space.

You might be able to get some help from the water heater manufacturer.

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Weezbo

That is the unit with the \"Skirt\"

i attended one of thier classes and they expounded on the advantages of it and made the observation of testing providing the conclusion that it would be even more dangerous for a Nat gas to be installed off the ground in a garage,in thier presentation...that was over a year ago and it sounded like they were shooting for an exception on thier product .....AHJ wont belive anything in writing unless it has all kinds of familiarity with thier current understanding of the code.Honestly i have no idea if has specific manufactures standards have been approved and "sanctioned" as of date...i asked them a bunch of questions concerning lit dust vapors animals bangs and bumps cleaning maint,.replacement parts whether a kit could be installed on other appliances these guys had an answer for just about anything and everything....perhaps some one can prove them wrong...or mistaken...it aint me...and i can be a "particular" PITA and brain.

Robert O'Connor_7

Paul.

2000 International Mechanical Code- Section 304 Installation: 304.3 Elevation of Ignition source. Equipment and appliances having an ignition source and located in hazardous locations and public garages, private garages, repair garages, automotive service stations and parking garages SHALL (means you gotta raise it) be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches (457mm) above the floor surface on which the equipment or appliance rests. Such equipment and appliances shall not be installed in Use Group H occupancies or control areas where open use, handling or dispensing of combustible, flammable or explosive materials occurs. For the porpose of this section, rooms or spaces that are not part of the living space of a dwelling unit and that communicate directly with a private garage through openings shall be considered to be part of the private garage....Paul, taking into account info you have provided, the room is indeed off the garage but however communicates with it. The heater must be elevated, sorry...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

But

If the heater has a code-approved and accepted FVIR system included as OEM, shouldn't that appliance then be exempted since it no longer technically has an exposed source of ignition?

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Dave Yates (PAH)

But

Sorry, a burp.

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Weezbo

Robert i do not have my most recent mech code nearby..

so i cannot see if indeed it is worded as you say. it is 2005 .have there been any insertions in the imc regarding this appliancce? Would chapter 5 in 2003 have any pertinant information on the subject?

Weezbo

Is there something to the effect ...

that the appliance must be removed and replaced ,should the appliance lock out on the safety feature?as it is not field repairable or able to be reset ? I am uncertain of the adoption of the codes in NJ . i honestly do not know if they are adopted immediately or if there is a long song and dance over them in that state.

Robert O'Connor_7

Dave..

When you say "Code approved" which code(s) are you referring to?
Conflicts, as per 304.2: Where conflicts between this code and the conditions of listing or the manufacturer's installation instructions occur, the provisions of this code shall apply.
Exception: Where a code provision is less restrictive than the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance or the manufacturer's installation instructions, the conditions of the listing and the manufacturer's installation instructions shall apply.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Robert O'Connor_7

Weezbo..

I'm not sure. Codes change almost daily, but adoption of said codes into administrative regulations take forever. I'm unaware that NJ changed or updated yet.
Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

seems to me that the code

is a lot less restrictive than was the FVIR regulations and millions of dollars that went into the joint development of this new safety technology by the manufaturers. The entire thrust of FVIR was the elimination of danger from ignition of flammable vapors. As Mike explained it to me, there were an average of 6,000 incidents each year, which would include a number of severe burns and deaths - not to mention property damage. Previously, I had thought the numbers much lower and arising from stupid incidents where people did things (like refueling) in close proximity. FVIR made much more sense once Mike presented the real info.

So, I guess I'm wondering why all the fuss over continuing to require something no longer necessary IF the appliance is an approved FVIR device.

Add to that the finding by multiple manufacturers during the dcevelopment of FVIR technology that raising the burner increases the danger exponentially.

This seems like one of those things where there's a need for leeway in the code official's interpretation of the code's intent.

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Unknown

Robert , is this code for gas and oil ?

The way it's worded , an oil boiler has to be 18 inches high at the ignition point , meaning at the nozzle height ? I've been setting our garage boilers up 18 inches to the legs of the boiler .

Barry Pines

Off the floor

It would seem that even with the new igniton systems that the codes will not allow an on floor installation. In this particular case I believe the easiest and cheapest fix would be to install a door on the room then it is no longer in the garage.

Dave Yates (PAH)

an

18" high door(G)

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jalcoplumb_2

song and dance

the current adopted version of the fuel gas code in NJ was adopted on 18Jan2005. It is the International Fuel Gas
Code/2003.

Just a little song and dance.

Robert O'Connor_7

Ron Jr.

Fuel is fuel, oil or gas. The IMC was not IMO interpretive. If one must interpret I'd say keep doing what your doing...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Bill_14

Rheem & AO Smith

Both Rheem and AO Smith have water heaters that are manufactured in accordance with code and do not require the heater to be raised. I do not have the model numbers available, but we install them every day.

Bill

Barry Pines

Door

No a full door. Make it a room with a door. Separates it from the garage.

Barry Pines

Door

No a full door. Make it a room with a door. Separates it from the garage.

Ken_8

What codes?

And the fact that you install them every day does not make them code compliant in NJ, unless you work in NJ, have an NJ master plumber's license, took a permit and passed inspection!

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Paul Mitchell_2

Thank you

I figured that..Seems like my partner talked to the code enforcer and then the home owner. There is a six inch step up to this room. Then according to the inspector about six inches to the bottom of the burner. So in theory according to him we only need to raise it 6". Well I am going to go as high as I can without purchasing a new HWH.
Thanks
Paul

Paul Mitchell_2

Very true

> And the fact that you install them every day does

> not make them code compliant in NJ, unless you

> work in NJ, have an NJ master plumber's license,

> took a permit and passed inspection!

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 68&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Paul Mitchell_2

Very true

According to this inspector what the HWH is approved for and what the code says are specifically differant. What got us was the old been there for twenty years problem. I didnt even think about the 18" code or we would not be having this discussion.
Paul...I do appreciate the interest

Bill_14

Pardon me Ken...

My company does not install equipment that is not "code compliant"...

Bill

Ken_8

Define

"code compliant"

And remember, the equipment being code compliant is interesting. The way YOU install it is EVERYTHING! That's what the codes are about, as far as we are concerned. NOT the equipment, but how it is installed. That, my friend, has always been the issue.

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Mark Eatherton1

Fuuny thing about FVIR is...

I heard that some senators daughter was burned in a fire caused by FVI from a water heater, so he saw it fit to write a LAW requireing all the water heater manufacturers to make water heaters that had FVIR abilities. Yet, right next to the very expensive, P.I.T.A. to maintain water heaters sits good old open flame boilers and furnaces... I guess I should keep my moth shut, or "they" might catch on and start requiring the same FVIR capabilites on ALL heating appliances.

Dave said that 6000 people or thereabouts are injured or killed by water heaters igniting flammable vapors every year. More people than that get poisoned or killed by carbon monoxide, but I don't see any legislation coming down the pike requiring automatic shut downs, or even a requirement that a CO detector be installed in any occupied space (ala smoke detectors).

Wasamatta with that picture???

Wacked if you ask me...

ME

Dave Yates (PAH)

and then

there's the 100,000 scalding (hot water related) incidents each year in which people seek out medical treatment - meaning that's the tip of a very large liability iceberg. 35,000 of those scalding incidents are with our children. A corresponding number with the elderly.

And the 10,000 CAP (or higher) deaths per year from comminity acquired LD. Which does not even begin to consider the many who survive, but carry lifelong disabilities brought on by this mostly preventable disease.

But I digress(G).

Where the hell did common sense go? Who killed it? Or, is it being held hostage? The codes are no longer protecting the health of the nation, they're being held at bay by lobbyists and politics. Twisted to suit sales. So much so, that they can't possibly hope to keep up with needed changes. In less than 100 years time, the system has become entirely too cumbersome to remain viable. From noble to ignoble and that's a crime.

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Mechanic

PERFECT PLEASE READ ... THANKS DAVE

Where the hell did common sense go? Who killed it? Or, is it being held hostage? The codes are no longer protecting the health of the nation, they're being held at bay by lobbyists and politics. Twisted to suit sales. So much so, that they can't possibly hope to keep up with needed changes. In less than 100 years time, the system has become entirely too cumbersome to remain viable. From noble to ignoble and that's a crime.

Bill_14

No kidding!!

I think you know what I'm talking about Ken. I know I do. Let's not play games with words.

Uni R

Ontario Building Code - Scalding

Dave, on September 1, 2004, the Ontario Building Code was changed. It now states that hot water supplied to fixtures in residential occupancies shall not exceed 49°C (120°F). Dishwashers and washing machines can bypass this restriction. The mixing valve can either be at the water heater or each point of use. This is applicable to all new construction as well as water heater replacements.

Dave Yates (PAH)

120 F delivery temp is not safe

The misconception that 120 F delivery water is safe is just plain dead wrong. If you go to www.wattsreg.com and follow the link for "Scalding - Danger Lurks", you'll be able to obtain the DVD for FREE.

I guarantee you'll have a much clearer picture of why 120 F is wrong once you've seen the video. In addition, you'll find the video lays out a complete system-wide solution for protection to prevent both scalding and bacterial growth. All that's missing are code reforms to ensure protection of consumers. Long overdue in my opinion.

At a time when the code bodies should be beefing up safeguards for potable systems, they have, instead, been giving approval for systems that have a very real potential for harmful bacterial growth - moving in the wrong direction.

In addition, instead of treating or considering the potable hot water side as a system, they have only addressed a component (and there's only one code body that has even accomplished this to my knowledge), which is only a partial measure. We look to these codes for establishing the minimum guidelines required for protecting the health of our consumers. Minimum implies the basic necessities. Those basic necessities have fallen by the wayside and the codes do not reflect current and ongoing issues that are adversely affecting the public's health. Lobbyists and politics have slowed change to a point where it takes years to affect any changes. The forms themselves don't even bother to ask if the proposed change improves health, instead the single question posed was what affect it would have on construction costs!

Plumbing codes grew out of the noblest of causes - the elimination of horrible water-born diseases like Typhoid and Cholera that decimated populations - sometimes killing one in four in city populations - within weeks. The advances in modern plumbing these past 100 years saved more lives than all of the doctors, hospitals and medical advances combined throughout all of history. It was the combined efforts of engineers, plumbers and others who forged the path to safety. Codes were developed to ensure ongoing safety and uniformity. It's time they got back on task.

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Uni R

Maybe you misread my post?

120° water at the tap can scald, but it is far safer than 140, and 120 mixed at the tank is less at the tap.


I just wanted to point out that some building codes are moving forward, although progressively, on balancing the scalding versus bacterial risk issues of heated water. Requiring mixing valves to keep tank temperatures up and tap temperatures down is exactly what code bodies should be doing at that was the case in Ontario. They are recommending tanks be set at 140 and requiring water to be mixed down to a maximum of 120 either at the tank or at the fixture.

Dave Yates (PAH)

nope

If the system remains untreated and open systems are granted a green light, then that's one small step forward and a giant leap backwards.

The whole push towards 120 F being touted as "safe" is misguided. If you stop to consider the decade+ time period in which our US water heater manufacturers have been delivering tanks set to maintain 120 F and look at the numbers of scalding cases, it seems pretty obvious that did not resolve the issue.

Bacterial issues are system-wide, not tank-specific. Even at 140 F, it takes 20 minutes of contact time for suppression of cultures. Steralization/eradication does not occur. Allowing the addition of open systems allows constant re-seeding and free passage to the potable hot water distribution system while water is being used. A loophole for bugs wide enough to drive a truck through.



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Uni R

You're losing me...

I would think that requirements for mixing down at the tank or the fixture would be a good thing. The hot supply lines have velocity, where the tank doesn't. If you are saying 120 isn't low enough for a limit at the fixture, I agree but add that it is better than no limits as it was. I don't want to get into open systems. They are wrong period. The only weak spot I have seen is that there are 3 ways to limit emperature and the third is if the device can't be set above 49/120. This law was intended to both reduce scalding risks and the risks of allowing legionella to breed. What should the code be?

Dave Yates (PAH)

that's

in the video! It's free.

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Ranger

Hi there...

....live in Brick.I really can't say I have had too many run-in's with the inspectors here over the last 18 years.I hear what everyone is sayin'about the "New" water heaters b-u-t I know in Brick,Dover and Lakewood old school rules still apply.Ya ever see the movie "Fletch" w/Chevy Chase?Ya know the seen w/the "mattress cop?"......:-)

Paul Mitchell_2

Hey Ranger

That is the usual deal around here. I started this whole thing. Gonna take a look and raise the new water heater up. Interesting thing is the old boiler is right next to it on the floor with open flame. I guess I should be thankful that they dont make me put that up to.

Constantin

Allow me to add another possibility...

Gentlemen, there is yet another reason to build a FVIR WH besides senators, horror stories, etc. It's money.

WH were the cheapest commodity one could buy prior to the upgrade requirements. All of a sudden, they cost 2x more at the store, but not necessarily that much more to build. FVIR could be a great excuse to potentially boost profit margins for every manufacturer in the field without raising the scrutiny that led to the whole industry getting investigated 15-years back for price-fixing collusion.

I also agree with the futility of trying to explain to the CPSC, public, etc. that WH aren't the only sources of open flames. By logical extension you should require explosion-proof electrical equipment everywhere. I suspect that WH were to top choice since their low burners would often be the first to ignite any vapor coulds rolling towards them.

Lastly, consider the very real impact that the FV issue has had on the industry. Many folk have tried to sue the WH manufacturers out of existence, so adopting FVIR models may have been seen as a way to reduce the cost of doing business. If the WH didn't cause the explosion, then someone else willbe on the hook.

Robert O'Connor_7

Paul.

They can't make you raise the boiler if it was installed with a permit. Who is the inspector there?
Robert O'Connor/NJ

Ranger

Hey Paul!

...yea man,I try if posible to meet w/the inspector if I haven't worked with him/her before and go over what I plan to do and hopefully "hash-out" any differances of opinion before hand,and this way you can feal out if your dealin' with a "Mattress Cop" or not...Sad to say but plain old common sense will get you into trouble more often than not.Hopefully you can squeak that one in there clearance wise!