Dummies for fluxing

Maine doug_9

I cleaned and fluxed some copper fittings and pipe and then got distracted. We went to cut the boat loose from the ice so we could go scalloping Monday.
So today I am back to fitten pipe and sweating the yeaterday joints.

How long can we leave cleaned and fluxed joints before soldering?

Tanks

hr

Depends on the brand!

Some flux goes weird after an hour or two in the air. Everything turns into a green snot looking assembly Other brands can be left fluxed for days or weeks.
Seen plenty of plumbing trucks with opened cans of LaCo on the shelves.
Maybe the direction on the label give some guidence?

hot rod

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Jon_2

Flux

Hot Rod is right, the stuff that turns into green snot is a real active flux, usually an acid type, and after soldering the joint should be neutralized by wiping the joint with a very wet rag. If it is not done the joint will turn green and eventually the residual flux will eat through the copper over a period od years. Most of our soldering fluxes today are not that aggressive or acid based but cleaning the joint with a wet rag after soldering stops the reaction between the flux and copper. Like Hot Rod said you can leave the joint unsoldered for a few days on not harm anything. A lot of times when I'm doing a boiler install I will fit all the tubing cleaned with flux untill everything is in place and then solder everything at one time.

Maine doug_9

Thanks for the info u 2.

There was nothing on the label of the flux I got from our local hardware store. Says it contains zinc cloride like some of the fluxes we use in stained glass.
Since there was no green snot developing, I went ahead and did 1/2 of an ell so I could see into the ell and the solder flows all the way in. The day old joints looked as clean and shiney as before so it appears I am OK.
Interesting that the solder from sweating pipe feels as hot as the solder from soldering stained glass panels when a ball of it drops into the torn hole in the old jeans.
If I did this all the time I would want an electric pipe end and fitting scrubber, my wrists and hands are not happy.

hr

Fluxes underwent some

big changes at the same time no lead solder was mandated. The newer no lead solders have a higher melting temperature than the old 50/50. As a result the fluxes needed to be reformululated to allow higher working temperatures.

Soldering with the new water soluable (also mandated) fluxes takes a bit more skill as the solder melt point and the flux "burn point" are fairly close together.

Heat the joint just until the solder flows, then quickly remove the heat for the best solder joint.

Take a bunch of soldered joints apart sometime and you can easily identify the ones that got over heated

hot rod

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Mark Eatherton1

Beats the flux outa me...

Good points HR. Actually, the mandated water soluable flux has been law for quite some time now. The problem with it was that the plumbers were used to their petroleum based fluxes that they could fry the living crap out of and still get the solder to flow into the joint. When the new water based fluxes came out, the plumbers had so much trouble with them that the enforcement officials (code inspectors) turned their heads the other way. Now, the EPA wants the inspection forces to start doing their job (and the plumbers too) or they're mandated by law to begin witholding funding for things like water and sewerage treatment plants.

You think this is not going to turn into a big Briar patch? Time for plumbers to learn how to solder all over again. Additionally, the insurance companies would like to see the Copper Development Association begin to "test and certify" people in the trades that have to solder. Each "certified" solderer will be required to sign into a log book, and post his pre printed, self adhesing ID sticker that is permenantly attached to the main water service of the building, showing what parts of the system they worked on "just in case" there's ever an issue down the road.

Looks like the common plumber may have to get personal liability/malpractice insurance pretty soon too...

All of this has to do with mold/water damage liability issues. The insurance companies are ALWAYS looking to lighten their financial loads. This may be a good reason to consider a solderless system like the ProPress. Shared liability... You have the power of a substantial corporation behind you. Oh yeah, wait a minute, Goodyear was a "substantial" company too, were they not.

'Tis a litiguous society (and PARANOID) in which we live...

ME

Maine doug_9

That's a good idea,

taking a joint apart. Kevin Coppinger prepared zone valves for me earlier (sweated adapters) as I have a tendency to apply to much heat and was concerned about toasting the ZV. Now I am now extending the zone on the east side to more panel rads. Someday a real plumber will stop into the shop and I will trade a seafood dinner for a soldering class.
I am going to clean all the joints and trying applying copper patina that we use for solder lines in glass to see if I can get an all copper colored joint. A bit of polish and clear laquer spray for the surface mounted pipe. Picture later if it works. And patina will cover some sins...

kevin coppinger_4

Doug!

How ya' been? You should not have too hard a time soldering...I have your handy work hanging in my windows...looks great to me! How are things Down East? kpc

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hr

Cheating your way to a perfect LOOKING

soldered joint

A file for the big gobs, and some open mesh sand cloth will make all the external solder disapper!

A little Brasso and you have an architetural finish!

In some cases solder joints don't have to BE good, they just have to look good

hot rod

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Maine doug_9

Hmmm, a challange

Most of our wiring and piping is surface mounted because it is very time consuming and difficult to drill thru foot thick brick and granite. The granite foundation is 2 feet or more thick in places. I used WM PAP for one side of the shop because it was winter and procrastination had set in a few summers ago. "Oh, winter is here", I better run some pipe and so unrolled the 1/2 inch. Does not look good, too fast a job, don't like the connectors, too many pipes, going to rip it out and do over.

In the downstairs apartment for example, all the wiring is surface mount. On 21 faces of the 12 x 12 inch brick pillars, I mounted an outdoor entryway lamp but upsidedown so that it looks like a miniature street lamp. So we had decided to go for copper pipe, surface mounted on bell hangers. Took lots of drilling in hard materials but it is coming along and I have purchased all the 3/16 hammer drill bits they had at the hardware store.

So the challange will be to make the pipe look like it was supposed to be part of the decor. Am going to try 00 steel wool to clean and then polish.
But tomorrow we are off in the boat after clearing the ice out Sat. Supposed to be a high of 20 with winds only 5 to 10 mph. Piping again maybe Tuesday, or perhaps Wed.
Our oil arrived last week. You can't see my building in this picture, it is just a bit over on the right side. The river has a lot of ice floating by.

Mark Eatherton1

The PERFECT looking soldered joint...

Back right after 9/11, when I was experimenting with making those custom panel radiators with extruded aluminum and copper tube, while the joint was still molten I'd give a quick blast of compressed air from the tip of a blow gun. PERFECT looking soldered joint. No stalagtites, no stalagmites, just little bits of spattered solder all over the ground.

After it cooled, cleaned it with some 409 and it looked nice and clean.

Now the CDA does NOT recommend the wiping of molten joints. They claim it wicks solder from the joint, causing the tensile pull out strength of the joint to be affected negatively. But for me and my money, I'll keep on wiping..

ME

Maine doug_9

Hi Kevin.

Downeast has been chilly and snow. Am spending too much time catching up on the building and not enough on glass. Maine is going to EZ-Pass on the first of Feb, now I can travel To Balmor to see my kids and Steamhead and only pay manual tolls in NH. Progress!

Boiler Guy

Soooo ......

How much solder does it actually take to correctly fill a standard joint? When I was starting in the trade, my father would calculate the number of joints and calculate the amount of solder required. This is what I was provided to work with (+/-10%). Man, a body sure learns not to waste in a hurry!! I had a lot of fun with this when teaching aprenti' to solder without waste. Any thoughts or comments guys?? JM2C

kevin_5

I learned in a radiator shop

We had real acid, real flux, and 50 pound rolls of solder, so I'm sure that I probably use way too much solder.
However, I do always wipe mine off and they look good. Concerning ME's post about blowing the excess off with compressed air, just be careful where the air is pointed. That is the way we used to disassemble radiators. Heat and blow. You have 2 chances to mess up here... either blowing solder out of the joint, or blowing melted solder in your eyes. I've only had a few joints leak and I think I probably did overheat them. If anyone can recommend a good place to make sure I'm doing it right, I'm all ears. Kevin

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