How's this quote sound to you guys?

Lou Miller

I just got a quote on a new oil boiler (hot water, not steam) and inderect water heater and was hoping for an opinion or two on it. The house is currently about 2200 SF but only heated on one level (1400 sf). The basement is what's not heated (it is finished though) and it's around 800 SF. We currently have about 200 feet of piping in a one pipe system that feeds 170 feet of 6" cast iron baseboard, all on one loop. The existing system uses 45 feet or so of 1-1/4" pipe coming out of the boiler and then splits into 2 equal sections of 1" pipe. All the radiators are fed off the 1" pipe. The system uses monoflo tees and it's reduced down to 1/2" before it goes into the baseboard.

Basically the guy is proposing ripping out the bolier, with a summer winter hookup for DHW, all of the existing piping, but leaving the existing cast iron baseboard in place. He's going to replace all of the supply valves and bleeders on the baseboard though (some of the valves are leaking right now). He's going to break the house into 4 zones. basically splitting the existing 170 of baseboard into two equal sized zones (which not only splits the amount of baseboard almost exactly in half, but the square footage of living space as well). He's going to run a new one pipe loop for each zone with monoflo's. 1" copper mains with 3/4" going into and out of all the baseboard.

He's going to install 80 feet of new copper baseboard in the basement (again, around 800SF) and that will be on a third loop. He's setting up a 4th loop that will be for future use (I'll be building an addition in the near future, about another 800SF). Another loop for the inderect water heater, and yet one more for any other future use I decide on (I'm thinking about using it to heat a workshop).

He's proposing using a Crown Ct-5 for the boiler (141,000 BTU) and a 50 gallon indirect water heater (also crown). His price is $10,400.

I've got 2 other prices. One was for $7K but using Weil-MClain units. I didn't feel comfortable with this guy though. I felt he didn't know what he was talking about when he was here and he was just looking to grab a quick buck by taking on the job and then subbing it out (I could be wrong). The other guy wanted $15K. He didn't give me any info other than price, so I have no idea what he was proposing to install.

I know it's a lot to take in, especially on a message board. However, how does the above sound to you guys? Too high, too low, just right? Good equipment and plan, bad equipment and plan, just right? The guy comes pretty highly recommended by a few people. He's also done some other work for me recently and he seems like a fairly knowledgable guy.

Would really appreciate any responses. Before anyone suggests it, I am going to ask him about outdoor resets (is that the right term?) before I go any further. Anything else I should ask?

Thanks in advance guys...

Bill Nye_2

Lou?

Lou, how does the house heat now? I mean are you comfortable? That monoflo system you describe was a Cadillac of a system if it was installed right. I was wondering why he wanted to chop it up.

With the cast iron baseboard, out door reset would be very nice. It would increase your comfort level and may reduce your heating cost.

You could leave the piping as is and zone every room with a thermostatic radiator valve.

As far as price goes, no one here is qualified to second guess your contractors costs and no one here has looked at your home.

Steve K._4

Quote

This forum is not a price checking service, tech yes/ $ no.
Best Regards, Steve

lchmb

Agree

Generally a price is not something that can be guessed on. I will agree with Bill on controlling each radiator. Unless of course you wanted to break the system down further. I personally think you need to take the cost out of the equation and go with the person you feel is giving you the best information, the most detail and who is willing to explain himself. By the sound's of this gentleman he has placed alot of thought into what you wanted, has explained how he intend's to do it and has given you a cost. You yourself said he is highly recommended and has done some good work for you. What more do you need?

Constantin

Lou, there are a couple of issues with this post...

... for one, netiquette on the Wall dictates no price discussions. Secondly, it is very hard to assess via a computer screen what is and what isn't required to get a job done. As such, it's pretty much a crap shoot to determine what quote is "right on" or not. Instead of focusing on price, I'd focus on references, past installs, etc.

Furthermore, if you're going with a gas-fired system, the marginal cost of going with a modulating, condensing boiler is probably well within grasping range. Such boilers offer much higher efficiency, if properly installed, and their wide latitude in firing rates (nowadays 5-1 is not uncommon) will allow you to install a heater that can handle your future addition, yet heat your present home very efficiently.

At the end of the day, the quality and performance of the heating system is determined by those that install and service them. Thus, I'd focus my attention on getting a good installer who'll also be around to maintain the unit in the future.

For your system, I'd suggest constant circulation and for the ultimate in comfort, TRV's on the radiators. Outdoor reset is a must (low hanging fruit). Also focus on getting a pumping-away system that features a good air separator like a Spirovent.

Kyle Kubs - Benchmark Home Inspections

Craftsmanship is priceless

Lou, If you look through this message board you will see many "before" pictures of boilers that these guy's have replaced. Many of them look like nightmares and have little thought behind them... Likely all done for a cheap price... It sounds as though what your guy is planning is solid and well thought out from a place of experience. You got good words about him from a number of people, (In my opinion - nothing more important then that) he took the time to plan your install and explain everything to you. I would rather pay $3000. more for a solid install then waste 7k and get garbage for it. Craftsmanship is priceless

Lou Miller

My Apologies

Sorry about the price thing guys. I'm new here so I didn't realize that was out of line. Won't happen again...

Bill Nye_2

Curious?

Lou, no apology required. But still curious, how do things work now? House heat evenly? Cold rooms, warm rooms? drafts ? noises?

Lou Miller

Bill,

The house heats terrible now. One end of the house is about 8 degrees warmer then the other end of the house on very cold nights. The one room we can't seem to get any heat at all going to it. The 1/2" pipe coming out of the monoflo gets hot, but the return(?) doesn't get hot at all. I'm assuming that means I have a blockage of some kind. Hopefully it's the valve as it's being replaced. The Domestic hot water barely works at all. It's a gravity system (in case I'm using the wrong term... it doesn't have a circulator on the loop) with a very small tank. When I do use all the hot water, it takes several hours before I have hot water again. The whole system is old and very ineffecient. I posted about this in another thread. I've gone through roughly 400 gallons of oil with the system in about 5 weeks. Most of which was quite mild temperature wise. The house is old and there's some heat loss, but 400 gallons of oil to me seems really extreme. I had the oil company out here who's serviced it for years (I just bought the house BTW), and they told me they've been trying to get the old homeowner to replace the system for years because it was so ineffecient. I understand nobody has seen the home and that part makes it tough to offer any opinion. I was hoping for opinions on the components and the type of piping he wants to put in.

Lou Miller

As I said above... House heats unevenly. Drafts really aren't an issue. The current system is very very noisy.

Lou Miller

Just got another quote...

I just had another guy give me a quote. I won't go into price, but they were pretty darn close to each other. One big issue that was different is one guy says that a one pipe system is better, the other guy says a two pipe system is better. Is there a way to say which is better? Or does that really depend on the condition of the house, the components being installed, etc?

The second guy gave me two numbers. One was for the exact same components I mentioned in my earlier post. His second price was for a Buderus boiler instead of Crown. The cost difference wasn't enough to make me even blink. Should I go for the Buderus instead of the Crown?

Uni R

TRVs

Contstantin, TRVs are great devices, however they not a simple solution on a diverter tee system.

Uni R

Diverter Tee vs Reverse Return

Both of these systems are excellent. It is far far easier to do it right from scratch doing reverse return and you can also more easily incorporate TRVs all over the system afterwards. Diverter tee systems (Monoflo etc.) are great in their simplicity, but they have to be set up perfectly and the idea with them is that it is a whole house or whole zone solution. You don't start trying to reduce the flow to any single radiator or you end up severely restricting the overall system flow. With a reverse return system using a manifold design, restricting heat in one radiator forces more to the others. With a diverter system, any time you close a radiator along it it goes from being actually quite a low head system to being a high head system, because all the water must then be forces to go through the diverters rather than take the easy route through the rad. I find it funny that diverter systems were installed before PCs, because doing the calcs is extremely onerous. It would be nice tgo know if your house was ever well balanced. If it were, then trying to restore that balance would be best, although it may have been envelope improvements that threw it off. Taking insulation out is not a great path to go down...

Lou Miller

I was following you just fine until you got to the end of your post. Excuse me for my ignorance, but I'm really confused by the last three sentences.

Well balanced, envelope improvements and taking out insulation? I think I sort of understand you, but I very well could not be.

My house was built in 1955. When I bought it last month, it was pretty much in the exact same state it was in the day the original owners moved in. They never replaced, or upgraded anything. Some things still work well, many others don't. The heating system is certainly one of the things that doesn't work well. The well balancing, I have no clue what you're talking, but would greatly appreciate an elaboration. If I followed you correctly, there weren't any alterations done to the house. No additions, no moving of partions, windows, etc. Certainly no changes whatsoever made to the heating system.

In my very inexperienced opinion, other than just being an old outdated system, I think it's possible that the heating system is ineffecient today because of horrible water quality for the last 50 years. The house is well water and we had it tested right away. The hardness was measured at 15 grains, along with pretty high levels of iron and bacteria. Quite a few of the pipes throughout the house are in dire need of replacement because of the water that has been pumping through them for years. I suspect that a closed system isn't going to be subject to the same type of problems that the domestic pipes are. However, running water that is so poor in quality through galvanized pipe all these years can't be good for it. I've already made several changes (sediment filter, softener, UV filter) to correct the water quality and I'm hoping that the new system I install will benefit from it. Then again, I really don't know... which is why I'm asking you guys.

Uni R

Balance

Lou, sorry if I didn't write that very well. What I was trying to say was this. It would be nice to know whether or not the house had balanced heat when it was first installed in the mid-50s. By well-balanced, I mean, that there are no hot and cold rooms or spots around the house. If it were, and perhaps they finished the basement, then that may have thrown the balance off. If it went out of balance because part of the attic was insulated, getting rid of the insulation to restore the balance would not be wise. By the same token, if the house was never balanced, it may be simpler just to start clean with a reverse return piped system. I hope that makes sense now.


It's hard to say what the water in your boiler is like. It's not totally impossible that the water is basically from 1955 and that the water wasn't hard there then. You just don't know. It is a factor for any changes however, because you will need to drain the system.


BTW, I'm just a lowly ho-moaner like you and started lurking here ages ago to get a better idea about my own system. It's a fascinating field. I have a ton of respect for what these guys do as a living. I look at my system as a hobby.


To be under a tight deadline, going into strange small places that have no heat and have the brute strength to demolish cast iron monsters that were designed to last forever while having the dexterity and patience to work with small gauge wiring and complex electronics and do soldering that looks like a jeweller did it is something I cannot even fathom. The heating system is the cardio system of the home and these guys are true heart surgeons.

Lou Miller

Uni R

I did understand you correctly, for the most part anyway...

I would certainly imagine that the current system was once a pretty decent system. I've had quite a few contractors out here looking at it. Just about everyone of them said it was the Cadillac of systems for that time period. Yes, all of what you said now makes perfect sense to me.

I think I've pretty much made up my mind to go with the guy who wants to put in a new one pipe system. He says he discussed all the details with quite a few other guys. All of them came to the conclusion, that based on the circumstances that I have here, the one pipe system will be best. I know a fair amount about this subject, but the guy who is going to be doing the work has probably forgotten as much I currently know, so I'm just going to trust his judgement. He didn't just show up and throw a number at me. He obviously spent some time looking into thoroughly.

I'm a little more than just an average homeowner. I'm a General Contractor. I specialize in kitchens and bathrooms though. Very seldom do I get involved with heating issues at all unless it's forced air. Boilers and so forth are just not what I do, so I let the experts make the calls in that area for me. My problem is that I moved to a totally new area and the guys I've used in the past don't want to come out this far to do any work. That's fair. It's just left me in a somewhat awkward position of finding somebody new to take care of this work. I'm just not used to hiring people I have no relationship with already. The guy I ended up with seems like a good guy though.

I have a great appreciation of anyone who can do something I can't. Thanks for all the responses everyone.