old school stem guys a few questions

vic_ny

working on a 1920 vintage steam system, boilers also. had a few questions on a couple items all this stuff is 1920ish original, rebuilt but original

webster vent trap series 23 no. 323
what does this do exactly and what are the air vent/relief valve things on top supposed to do. they actually look like a vacuum breaker but work to opposite way. small steel ball sitting in a cicular opening with a cap on top

webster boiler return trap no. 323
i am assuming this is being used like a condensate return tank/pump would in todays steam systems?

service call on one of the boilers today off on flame failure, i left the room to get something to drink, when i came back the room was full of steam like thick fog, come to find out this is the reason why the boiler actually went off on flame failure by the time the steam pressure came up over about 2-3 lbs the small air vent things on the vent trap started blowing out live steam

patrick linhardt

kickin' it old school

Hi Vic,

The vent trap and the boiler return trap work together to remove air from the system (air out) and return the water to the boiler (water back). The vent trap has a float on the inside that rises up when the returning condensate gets too high. On gravity return systems, this closes off the vent port to prevent any water from getting out of the system. The ball bearing is there to prevent air from returning to the system on the off cycle and to get the return side to draw into a vacuum.

The return trap does act to return the water to the boiler like a pump would in today's technology. It also had a float that would rise up as the pressure built up in the coal-fired boiler. The float would trip a valve to allow steam to enter the top of the return trap. That steam pressure would then slid/push the water into the boiler. The float would then drop and the steam valve would close. Two check valves are on the wet return below to make sure water goes where it is supposed to.

Your problem is steam trap(s) that are not working. They are allowing steam to get in the dry return and find its way out through the vent port. Look at the traps on both the radiators and above the steam mains at the end. One or some of those are leaking steam through. There is no thermostatic element in the Webster vent to keep the steam in the system, so it pours out the vent port. You are going to have to find and repair the bad traps before doing anything else. You should also reduce the steam operating pressure and consider the addition of a vaporstat to really keep the pressure down.

Hope this helps out.

Best regards, Pat

vic_ny

let me backtrack a bit, i have 3 of those air vents on the vent trap, 2 of the 3 were missing the top cap 1 had a cap but no ball and one had the ball but no cap. i made one good one out of the junk and plugged the other 2 ports on this mainfold. i realize that i need new vents at the least, what are you guys using, i only have 3" for height to the ceiling so whatever i use has to be smaller than 2-1/2" tall.

now i had good system circulation with proper condensate return and the boiler return trap was working correctly till the steam pressure came up to about 2-3" then it would blow out of the air vent under 2-3" it was only air excaping from the air vent. i agree with having a few traps bad (catholic school no money to spend for this kinda stuff, leaky tubes rotting boilers etc. asbestos insulation, boiler covering etc)i just feel its a huge amount of steam excaping the air vent even if a few traps are bad. why would it not blow out steam from the air vent under 3" steam pressure in system?

i agree with installing a vaporstat expecialling seeing how old these boilers are but i have 4 stories and quite a distance to cover from the boiler, lower settings just dont cut it

John Shea

Vic, these guys know what they're talking about.

Higher pressure is not going to help.

The steam you're losing through the bad traps would normally be heating other rads. Trying to compensate by raising pressure is not effective.

Raising the pressure can cause water-hammer and also damage thermostatic radiator traps.

Explain to the church that they will recoup the money they spend on new traps and/or system maintenance rather quickly as they will spend MUCH less on fuel when the system's operating properly.

Hope this helps!

Steamhead

Vents

I'd use 3 Gorton #2 vents on that vent trap. These are the only vents in the whole system so they need to have maximum capacity. The more capacity, the less pressure you need to run to heat the building. Webster Vapor systems like this one were designed to run at 8 ounces or so.

The steam escaping from the existing vents is, as Pat says, an indicator of leaking traps. Steam is pressurizing the dry return thru these leaky traps, decreasing the pressure differential across the radiators which makes them heat slower. You can get replacement trap parts from Tunstall or Barnes & Jones. Once they're fixed, you'll need even less pressure to heat the building.

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John Shea

I just re-read your original post and something dawned on me.

That vent trap in the boiler room (I've got an old Webster too!). Look for a Thermostatic trap at the end of the closest steam main (possibly right in the boiler room up high). If that trap should fail open...

BAM, there's your problem. That trap on the dry return is on a line heading right for that vent trap.

vic_ny

thanks for the info keep it coming, i think its weird that now this steam blowing off is a problem, i totally agree with the site having bad traps....the pressure has always been the same for the 5 or so years we have had this place and i never had this steam blowing off problem

Mad Dog

That's right...listen

bad trap/s need to be fixed, vaporstat without a doubt and 3 or more Gorton #2s ...a make a "battery" of them or as dan calls it a heating menorah. In some cases, I will take the Trap and receiver and the associated check valves down below, right out and repipe with a battery of main vents. After coal went by the wayside, you didn't need them. Low pressure alot of vents and she'll work fine. Just make sure if you do cut them out to "mount " them proper-like up in your shop, or save them for Dan's heatin museum. Mad Dog

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vic_ny

just looked up some info on the gordon #2 vents, they are over 6 1/2" tall that is no good i only have 3" from the top of the vent trap 1 into 3 port mainfold to the cement ceiling the exixting vents are only 1 1/2" or so, anyone make these in this size? i could 90 out if one is made to work horizontally but i doubt it

patrick linhardt

it is a trap problem, not a vent problem

Hi Vic,

The guys are right, fix the traps first. You don't need to install Gortons, the Webster will work fine. Remove the plugs because you need the capacity. You don't need the balls or the caps. The balls were there for coal fire and vacuum which you don't have and don't need. The caps are there to keep in the ball and provide some adjustment. You aren't using the balls and you will want maximum venting. So keep the Webster working proud in a slightly modified condition.

Fix the traps, the church will save money in the long run.

Operate at the lowest pressure possible, the church will save money right away.

Best regards, Pat

Steamhead

Those Webster vacuum checks

probably don't have thermostatic elements to stop any steam that reaches them from escaping. This is undesirable for several reasons: 1- escaping steam can scald someone, 2- escaping steam lowers the water level in the boiler, 3- if the low water cutoff isn't working the boiler will crack when the water level gets too low. Vic, if that were my system I would change those vents.

If the #2 vents are too tall, try building a horizontal manifold to hold 8 Gorton #1 vents. They should fit in the space you have.

And by all means, fix those traps.

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Mad Dog

You are correct Sir Patrick , but that doesn;'t mean

that the system wouldn't benefit greatly from some proper venting. Most of those old recievers will have either an old vaccuum vent with is not applicable today or one small main vent. A few Gortons or even Hoffmans should be added...especially if you are going to go with a vaporstat...otherwise...yiou will see short cycling like you dun never seen. Mad Dog

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Christian Egli

A hole in one, fore!

Let's see which holes we are proposing to plug with a Gorton.

The Webster boiler return trap 323, is a glitzy name for condensate pump. It is a pump-less condensate pump which eats no electricity, right? Neat.

Just like the square cast iron condensate pump of modern times there are several holes with pipes attached.

The boiler return trap has one extra pipe on top where the motive steam power comes through, this is in lieu of an electric power cord. Again, neat.

The three remaining holes connect to:

1) the exit pipe where the condensate leaves either the electric pump or the last check valve in the pump-less assembly. Nothing wrong here, this pipe should only see water.

2) the end of the returns, dry and wet, form where water and air (and steam when things go wrong somewhere else in the system) come pouring into the condensate pump. The level goes up and the water is ejected, the air has to find its own way out through...

3) the wide open vertical pipe, in modern pumps, that raises above the boiler water level. Pipe three is where the air breathes out. In the old set-up they thought of inventing a float trap to keep piled up water in the return pipes from spilling, but this is still the same hole, open to the atmosphere where air is set free.

The air eliminator trap leaks steam and we always incorrectly assume it is broken. It is only broken if it leaks buckets of water. Yours may still be perfectly good.

If pipe number three is releasing steam, which is OK by the air eliminator float trap since it does not discriminate between air and steam, (both gases) it means a thermostatic trap somewhere has failed open. It may be on a radiator, it may be on a main as a crossover trap.

Your system has thermostatic traps on each radiator? right? If not, then it would need an air vents on the return to stop the steam. And you would ignore everything I am saying.

The failed traps need to be fixed.

Instead, if you trap the vent-to-the-atmosphere hole on the condensate pump, you're just asking for the captive steam to go beat up some other poor thermostatic trap. It will. Plus, your returns will become pressurized causing both air and condensate to stop flowing correctly. You'll soon have to replace all the traps. Double trap means double jeopardy. Bang bang!

Your manifold with space for three air eliminator float trap is that vent-to-the-atmosphere that needs to stay open at all times. You can't replace them with a thermostatic trap or thermostatic vent, you already have a trap on each radiator. You can replace it by a wide open vertical pipe, but 3 inches is not high enough, maybe you can find a place to go up.

Find or rebuild the Webster air eliminators and don't expect them to stop steam, they don't.

Maybe you don't need anything. Just leave the hole open. You've got steam coming out now, that's wrong, but you don't say you have water coming out too, so maybe you've already got enough stack height to prevent water spillage. The simplest would be to put a straight pipe, make it go up as high up to the ceiling as your 3 inches allow, then come back down to the floor or somewhere where an eventual water spillage could occur without too much distress. Make sure the pipe can always drain clear for the air to escape. Provide an air gap (a hole or a tee) near the top so that the condensate will not be siphoning itself out after a minor spill.

That could be the easiest thing to do. Reducing boiler pressure will reduce back-up spillage risk. Evaluate this risk by measuring the height from the boiler water level to the top of this new pipe, compare it to an A dimension you would need in a gravity return.

Here is an alternate solution, I am thinking it can be done. Use a F&T trap but install it upside down. It will close on condensate and open on air and steam. Exchange the thermostatic unit for a plug. Choose a very big trap so you have a big hole for air to leave since it is squeezing through a hole normally meant for condensate.

But first, find the broken thermostatic trap.

Steam would not be leaking all the time if the broken trap was not on a radiator or zone that was on all the time either.

You can replace the cross over traps by Gorton style air vents. You could add them anywhere on the steam main. This would probably speed up venting on start up. You don't care about vacuum here anymore.

It seems I picked a side in this fight, didn't I? I sure made a whole pile of excuses! I'm with Pat. Will I get bitten for this? I'm not too afraid, I had plenty fun tonight anyway.

Christian Egli

Dave Meers

no sides please

Hi Christian,

Not to scold you, but we are all here to exchange ideas and help Vic, not to pick sides. I think we can all agree that trap maintenance is the crucial concern here.

I did a little more research on the vent trap. The Webster manual from circa 1930 suggests the removal of the ball in the vent to increase venting capacity when using with steam blast coils. It also mentioned the multiple tappings for extra venting capacity. It said the caps were just to hold in the ball, so I was wrong about the idea of adjustment. I feel that using the existing Webster vent trap with all three tappings open would give the system plenty of capacity. Pipe to a safe location so that any steam escaping would not cause a problem.

Trap repair will stop the steam from escaping through the vent, and lower the operating costs. Sounds like a win-win for the church.

Best regards, Pat

Christian Egli

There is rarely one side to anything, even the master trap

Thanks for reminding me we're all friends. I never meant it otherwise, I did get carried away and boy, gosh, was I long winded.

I've been looking for double traping and found lots of references to it in district steam heating. It seems they want a master trap just before the condensate meter to both protect the meter and make sure no not-paid-for steam escapes before the meter.

The book on district heating I'm reading from, details how important it is to fight leaky traps on the radiators and how this will affect the normal operation of the system. They insist a valve that opens into the return prior to the master trap should be provided to check for faulty up-stream traps.

So, there it is again, fixing the radiator traps is the first priority. Hmm, right again, Pat!

Hey, thanks for reading and good luck Vic.

Mad Dog

We are all on the same ..............................

Steam Team (tm) Mad Dog

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Dave Meers

thanks for the post

Hi Christian,

I forgot to thank you for your input before. I'm glad you enjoy the forum. Keep up the research, it sounds like you have been bitten by the steam bug.

Best regards, Pat

patrick linhardt

mo venting mo better

Hi MAD DOG and steamhead,

You are right, the system needs more venting. If I got this right, Vic has only one of the vents in operation, with two plugged. When Webster designed this system, they went out of their way to specially tap this vent trap with three vent valves. This is a red flag from the Webster factory circa 1920 that this system needed extra venting. That was a custom order from the factory, not a stock Webster vent trap. Let us pay attention to this and get it back to factory specs. Those are three 1/2" openings that we can dump to the atmosphere, more venting than a menora of Gortons. Pipe it to a safe drain and keep up on the trap maintenance.

Best regards, Pat