best 92% boiler choice and quote check

pete_15

I've got an hvac job to change over my heatpump forced air heat to natural
gas hydronic forced air for a 3800 sq ft home, we are also doing indirect
domestic water via an extra zone.


I need opinions between:


peerless pinnace PI-199 (183MBH, 92%)
weil mcclean ultra 155 or 230 (139/207MBH), 92%
munchkin 199M (183MBH), 92%


all seem to be the top-of-line, modulating boilers.


I plan to live in the home for at least 15 years if not forever. I'm looking
for a quality
unit, easy to service by pros, not too proprietary etc... If they are all
practically the
same, i'd go for the lowest of them.


I've heard weil mcclean had a leaking onto circuit board problem that has
since been
fixed.


The other question is a sanity check on the quote.


new boiler, indirect tank, new coils for attic and basement air handlers,
all plumbing,
ducting to add coils, pressure tanks to buffer against town water (code requirement),
moving
2 a/c compressors to an alternate spot way from a window. 13K$.

clammy

found this today

Check out the post by that heading if that gives you any idea .I recently did a munchkin and indirect and a whole heating system consisting of from what it sounds less work for just about that in units and materal alone the low price doesn't mean your getting the right stuff good luck peace clammy

Larry_10

for what your having installed sounds like a real cheep price just make sure he is the man for the job. ask to see pictures of his work and ask other people that he did work for them how there boilers are.

id rather pay more to someone that dose real good work like clammy and S Milne i wish i had guys like that do my work and have it done right the first time rather then having to pay someone else to fix it twice try the find a pro link on this site and see if you can get someone real good from here quote you

good luck

Ted_9

That doesnt sounds right. Its too cheap.

And why all condensing boilers?

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clammy

heat pumps

Hey ted he probly has no chimmey being he has heat pumps now .Saw that you visited buderus lucky dog peace clammy

pete_15

Not sure why you think its cheap.
Let me clarify the work. we already have all ducting
and 2 air handlers w/heatpump and a/c. Bid is to
add boiler, coils, indirect domestic tank. also included
is moving to existing compressors to other side of home.
chiminey not available for ducting. the hardest work is
getting hydronic lines from basement to 2nd story attic
air handler.

I asked for good quality, and excellent cost to run as
we are getting killed by electric (400-1000$/mo).
also existing system fights to keep house warm.
(eastern PA).

Does this still sound cheap at 13K? The HVAC company is
reputable, did services for us when we moved in
during the summer and was fair and professional. They
have a nice office downtown, and was referred to me
by people that have used them for years. The sales guy
explained they have decent bids, and intend to keep
people as lifetime clients. The gas co came in to
put lines, and they were pricey and sloppy work, and
one other company my friend was "ok, not great" with.

???

Also, what about the boiler differences?
seems like munchkin at 2K lower than peerless
makes sense, since it is a rebadged unit anyway?
how about weil/mclean vs. munchkin?

thanks alot.
-p

Bill Nye_2

Pete

The Munchkin and the Pinnacle are the same product different jacket. I have no first hand experience with the WM product so I can not comment.

If you ever decide to upgrade the controls, the Munchkin will allow you to use the HTP Vision controls, the Pinnacle you will have to use aftermarket controls like Tekmar.

As far as price is concerned, no one here with out looking at your job, will be able to give you an accurate opinion. It sounds easy, I hear it all the time "All's you gotta' do ....."

Ask for references, see if you can look at some previous work or talk to previous customers. Contractors skill levels vary, sometimes by a great degree. Hope everything works out. I would rather have paid a little too much than to have paid too little and gotten a s#$@ job. It always costs more in the long run, higher operating costs, maintainence, re-doing what should have been done ,etc. Hope everything works out ok.

Mad Dog

Sounds 50-75% cheaper than it should be

That's a lotta work and alot in materials. Mad Dog

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Al Corelli - Agix Associates

Sounds way cheap to me.

What AREN"T they doing?

Do they get these boilers "off the truck"? (stolen)

Or was your price just for material?

Ted_9

Hello Pete? Are you still there?

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Chuckles_3

boiler comparisons

> Also, what about the

> boiler differences? seems like munchkin at 2K

> lower than peerless makes sense, since it is a

> rebadged unit anyway? how about weil/mclean vs.

> munchkin?


The Pinnacle is the same hardware as the Munchkin; Peerless takes its cut so the price is higher. On the other hand, Munchkin comes with Vision I firmware for outdoor reset; with the Pinnacle you need an external controller to get reset. Built-in firmware is good for compactness, but Tekmar controllers are more flexible and better designed. Munchkins can also use a Tekmar if they have the latest rev control board; for either the Munchkin or the Pinnacle, make sure you get the new Tekmar (263?) that uses an analog signal to control the modulating burner.

The WM Ultra is a bigger, more solid, more expensive unit. Its built-in firmware has some wacko features (like 18F temperature boost every 10 minutes) but apparently this can be disabled.

They're all fine units and work well. The Munchkin/Pinnacle elicits less repect because of price and construction (it has been described here as a 'Coleman cooler') but it works just fine. We have the wall-hung version and it's nice to free up the floor.

Incidentally, if you have a newer, reasonably insulated house, those boilers are likely to be too big. You should be able to use a Munchkin/Pinnacle 140. Was a heat loss done? Was too high a margin or error added to the heat loss?

Rudy

price ok

in my opinion the price seems reasonable for the work. install 1 gas boiler w/indirect storage tank.install 2hydronic coils in existing ductwork&relocate outdoor units. i'm assuming contractor is reusing existing air handlers&disconnecting electric heat package&using hydro coils instead.i will take a guess and say the contractor has intentions of using heat pumps as 1st stage of heat with hydro coils as 2nd stage or locking out heat pumps when outdoor temp falls below 40F.(typical in ne pa.)

Rudy

price ok

in my opinion the price seems reasonable for the work. install 1 gas boiler w/indirect storage tank.install 2hydronic coils in existing ductwork&relocate outdoor units. i'm assuming contractor is reusing existing air handlers&disconnecting electric heat package&using hydro coils instead.i will take a guess and say the contractor has intentions of using heat pumps as 1st stage of heat with hydro coils as 2nd stage or locking out heat pumps when outdoor temp falls below 40F.(typical in ne pa.)

pete_15

yes im still here

im still here and reading everything you are telling me.
The hvac guy with the lower price actually told me he
had been installing WM ultras, they had some water leak
issues, and then starting installing the peerless and liked them.
peerless pinnacle pi-199-NG
peerless +40 indirect water heater w/aquastat
2 x 80K hydronic coils (freeze protection on 2nd floor)
taco priority zone controller (4 zone)
extrol expansion tank, backflow preventer, water feeder, 3 circulators, air purger and vent
boiler and circulator ball valves (8)
2 thermostats
all required piping and ducting
all labor

included is an unconditional 1yr waranty, paraphrased,
if we are not happy, he deinstalls it and refunds all
money.

so, i will have a sit down w/him, check references on
his peerless installs, ask for pictures (is this common?),
ask him about doing a munchkin instead. (if he has done
several successful peerless, is his first "munchkin" asking for trouble?)

my observation is that labor in my area for most trades
is not nearly as expensive as metro NYC. So maybe that
is affecting things.

pete_15

yes im here, see my recent post

yes im here, see my recent post.

can someone amuse me and tell me what an
"outdoor reset" is, and do i need one?

also if the munchkin and the weilmclean are
the SAME price, which would you use?

also, we currently have an 84 gallon electric.
and we use alot of water, at once. (small kids,
laundry etc...) we nearly bottom out the current
tank on a good night.) is a +40 indirect enough?
I don't want to go this far and then have issues
with the hot water.

-p

pete_15

yep

yes, you got the scenario right as far as i've discussed
with the contractor. so, a heat pump above 40F is more
cost-efficient to run than NG?

-p


> in my opinion the price seems reasonable for the

> work. install 1 gas boiler w/indirect storage

> tank.install 2hydronic coils in existing

> ductwork&relocate outdoor units. i'm assuming

> contractor is reusing existing air

> handlers&disconnecting electric heat

> package&using hydro coils instead.i will take a

> guess and say the contractor has intentions of

> using heat pumps as 1st stage of heat with hydro

> coils as 2nd stage or locking out heat pumps when

> outdoor temp falls below 40F.(typical in ne pa.)

Rudy

yes , i would say a heat pump would be more effiecnt above 40F. (NE PA PPL OR PECO TERRITORY) assuming both heat pumps are in proper working order & refrigerant levels are ok.most of your electrical bill is the electric heat packs. taking a guess you probably have 2 10 or 15 kw heat packs.between 20&30 thousand watts which your replacing hydro coils.i would guess & say your bills will be reduced@least 30to50%

Floyd_7

Pete,

The only "water issues" that the Ulra's had was some leaks by the treaded plugs in the casting. Those issuse's have long been resloved and there are new plug kits available for any that may leak.... the upgrade to the new plugs is a very simple operation.... turn out old plug, turn in new plug....really a tough one. If the fellow your talking about didn't have enough gumption to call the factory and find out how simple it was to fix those problems, I would have some serious reservations about having him install ANY boiler for me!!!

Floyd

Ted_9

Pete, do your self a huge favor and talk to some more heating contractors. In fact, I advise you to use the "Find a Professional" seach that is on this site.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Floyd_7

Outdoor reset...

means the as the temps. rise outdoors the temps of the boiler heating water will get cooler, likewise as the temps outside fall the heating water temps will go higher(providing more heat).
For me I have had great success with the Ultra boiler, I have one in my house that I have beat the ever livin crap out of, and it keeps right on ticking, I have installed them in pig barns where they run 24/7/365, with very corrosive air and that hasn't killed one yet....going on two years.
As far as the water situation.... a +40 with a Ultra 155 will make tons of hot water IF it is piped correctly.
One thing to keep in mind here..... with these boilers (Munchies or Ultra) they HAVE to be piped CORRECTLY or you are pissing in the wind........make SURE the people that you get to do the job know their stuff!!!! Many of the problems posted here are NOT defective materials, but defective workmanship!!!!!

Good luck!!

Floyd

Uni R

Outdoor reset

A control that has an outdoor temperature sensor that determines how hot the water temperature should be to keep the house at a given indoor temperature.