Help! Air Trouble Nightmare

Slingshot

I need some suggestions. I have a contractor who changed out an American Standard steel oil fired boiler and replaced it with a dry base NY type boiiler (about three years ago) and has had air problems ever since (yeah that's right, three years ago and he is informing me of it now???) He has been at the trade for ten or fifteen years with his father-in-law and has carried on the same "traditions" of installations etc.. He told me that every three or four days he has to go to this house for a "no heat call" and bleed all three zones and a boatload of air comes out. So, naturally, being a somewhat enlightened person on the concepts of "pumping away" and flow and head and all that cool stuff, I began preaching to him like one of those guys who knocks on your door with pamphlets and promides and tells you all about the things you are doing wrong and all about what you are going to have to do if you want to go to Hydronic Heaven. Like, you have to pump away from the expansion tank and all that stuff and he stops me right there and says, as if I had lost my mind and says "the boiler is making the *****air". So I regroup and take it a little slower and instead of preaching I start asking Questions like, "is the circulator on the return side of the boiler? He replies as if there was only one answer to that question,"YES". Is the expansion tank on the discharge side of the circ?Again "Yes". And knowing he teachings, I asked is the feed valve on the suction side of the circ. Agian"YES. So I started telling him stories about pumping away for twenty minutes on our toll free phone line where in desparation, he agrees to put on an air seperator, air vent,pump away on the supply side of the boiler with the feed valve at the expansion tank connection. I wrote up the order an shipped it out and sat like the cat that swallowed the canary. (did I mention that I work for a wholesaler?)
Four days later my cell phone rings and I answere it in a pleasant "preacher's" voice and I think the devil himself is on the other end"I told you that bull*** wouldn't work. I did all that stuff you told me and the old hag called back cold and airlocked (the heating system I mean)and it after costing me a fortune and somebody's got to do something. I couldn't beleive what I was hearing. How could all of my teachings let me down? I told him that I would be at his doorstep (50 miles away) at 8:00 the next morning, which I was. He did have an airscoop on the supply side with an auto air vent on top on the expansion tank connected to the bottom.It was a steel 12 x 36 ceiling hung type but I didn't see anything wrong with this. What I didn't like was that the tank was also connected to the third connection of an angle flow control and there was an old wood fired boiler that was valved off and never used. So I convinced him, after more preaching and testimonials, to get rid of the flow check and disconnect the wood boiler all together and a few other modifications like putting a new auto air vent on the return pipe just where it turned down to the boiler from the ceiling. We did it, bleed it, cleaned up and said three "Hail Mary's" over the whole thing and I took off like a bat out of hell for home, never expecting to hear from this job again. Guess what? He didn't call for two whole weeks so I called him. He said he was talking the the nice lady at the liquer store yesterday and the system works quieter and quicker that ever before and she was finally satisfied. Then another week went by. The old hag was on the warpath again. The pipes were making noise and she was almost froze to death. The contractor is more adamant that ever that the boiler is creating the air. I spoke to the MFG and they think he is crazy and are not willing to do anything whatsoever. The old hag is ready to sue anybody who was ever involved in the heating industry and the contractor is suicidal. He has bleed about a billion gallons of water through the system, some air too. Another thing that is happening is that new air vent on the top of the return header is not letting any air out automatically but when you push the vavle a whole bunch comes out. Also, the contractor told me today that when he left there the other day he had the pressure on about 20lbs and when he went back on todays ritual bleeding the pressure was only 10lbs. I questioned the feed valve, Hhe said it was the second "new" one that he put on.
I am already going prematurely bald. Can someone help me?
Thanks
J.O.

jim sokolovic

Maybe...

auto air vents shouldn't be used with that type of expansion tank?

Uni R

Autovents

Autovents should not be used with conventional style tanks. Air will go into solution, leave the tank and then escape the system by means of the autovent. Bladder tanks are cheap... throw one on... that or you must close off the autovents.

ed wallace

auto vent

get rid of autovent install a b and g air removal or spirovent

Slingshot_2

Auto Air Vent??

I did not know that auto air vents are not supposed to be used with this type of tank. Can you explain why not? If the problem was too much air leaving the system (tank) I think without any place to accomadate the thermal expansion the system pressure would go up, not down. I do agree that these types of vents are not very effective. I am puzzled as to why this one will not work automatically but will blow off like a race horse when the little valve is pushed.
Still losing hair.
Slingshot

Weezbo

the basic H of it is air is taken IN ...now wheres it supposed

to go?spring for a extrol tank,put a spiro vent combo on it and check the field for leaks.

Unknown

I agree with Weezbo

Get rid of the compression tank , install a bladder type tank , and check for a leak somewhere . With auto air vents on the system , I would think the compression tank would water log and the system pressure would increase alot . My educated guess is it's a leak in the system .

Slingshot_2

Update on air

When you talk about diaphram tanks, good air elimination, pupmping away and that kind of stuff, you are preaching to the converted. I carry a load of exerpts from Dan's preachings aand I am constantly handing them out to everyone I can, even if they don't want them. But some guy's have their beliefs and are not too willing to listen to new stuff, too complicated, cost too much and they never had a problem with "their way" before. This guy has been using these big tanks for years and he thinks I am trying to trick him or something when I tell him I can sell him a diaphram type for less tham half the cost of the old style. He is after spending a small fortune in experimental parts and procedures in this house, not to mention the stress and countless hours. Everyone in that neighborhood knows him by name and the family dog wags his tail at the site of his service van. After all the literature and the sermons and inspite of (or because of) all the things he has tried he is absolutely covinced that the boiler is "making" air. He keeps asking me "Where is all this *&&*%#$@ air coming from"?
So, in another desparate attemp to get this monkey off his back he ordered a new boiler from me today. He is willing to pay for a new boiler rather than try any more of those "modern" suggestions.
I asked him what will he think if in a couple of weeks the same ugly monster raises his head again, He said "at least I will know for sure it is not the boiler". Desperate men will do desperate things.
Oh yeah, the "old hag" as he puts it, has worn out three or four pairs of thick nylons snooping around like a beagle looking for leaks. She hasn't found any.

Weezbo

is he still into gert bell and gosset pumps?

pump every zone ,return pump on packaged boiler,....

Unknown

So he's going to

replace the boiler on a hunch that the boiler itself is making the air in some strange way ? Well , it could possibly be an internal leak that's boiling out with the exhaust gas . Stranger things have happened .

As a side note , if it was my problem job I'd remove the relief valve , cap that port , close down any air eliminators and pressurize the system to around 50 psi . See if it holds . At least that'll eliminate one of the ways air can be introduced into the system - pretty cheap and quick test . I was on a few problem installs last year that kept getting air bound . Each one had a leak in the old radiant piping connected to it . Wish him luck on this one and don't forget to update us on the progress .

Dave Stroman

I had a job once where there was a leak underground. The more it leaked, the more fresh water the boiler took on. Lots of air in fresh water. Wonder if he might try turning off the water to the boiler and see if the pressure drops.

Dave in Denver

Weezbo

i have ,from my telephone got two boilers running today.

*~/:) here we have no chance to fly over at a drop of the hat to get heat.one is possibly an expansion tank ...it was 40 in there....the lady of the home due at eight from Vacation....the other is due to setteling of a slaband the garage door not making a weather tight seal...no problem done deal.

ScottMP

He moved the

air scoop but did he change the location of the pumps ?

You moved the expansion tank and fill valve, but added a vent on the return ?

Close the vent on the return, all of them. Are there auto vents upstairs ?? If he has done things the old way I bet there are. THATS where air will come in on a poorly set up boiler. Close them.

Rons on the ticket, test the system to hold preasure, NOT under fire. Does the flue gas have alot of white steam ?

What size circ's ?

Bladder Tank

NO AUTO vents except on the scoop.

Pumping Away from the bladder tank.

Scott

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Slingshot

location of tank, circ etc.

> air scoop but did he change the location of the

> pumps ?

>

> You moved the expansion tank and fill

> valve, but added a vent on the return ?

>

> Close

> the vent on the return, all of them. Are there

> auto vents upstairs ?? If he has done things the

> old way I bet there are. THATS where air will

> come in on a poorly set up boiler. Close

> them.

>

> Rons on the ticket, test the system to

> hold preasure, NOT under fire. Does the flue gas

> have alot of white steam ?

>

> What size circ's

> ?

>

> Bladder Tank

>

> NO AUTO vents except on the

> scoop.

>

> Pumping Away from the bladder

> tank.

>

> Scott

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 237&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Slingshot

location of tank, circ etc.

No, he didn't move the air scoop, he added one there was never one on it before. And I guess I neglected to paint a mental picture of this system, which may be part of the problem.
The boiler has 1-1/4 supply off the top and 1-1/4 return on the bottom of the water jacket, just over the fire. It is a dry base boiler. The 1-1/4 supply pipe comes up about 12" and turns 90 degrees and goes into a 6" nipple which is screded into a watts air scoop. On top of the A/S is an auto air vent (Maid-omist #67). In the bottom of the A/S is the connection for the expansion tank, Which is five or six feet away and up 3-4 ft higher strapped to the ceiling. After the A/S we have a UP15-42 brute which pumps another few feet and then reduces to 1", because that's the size the previous boiler was piped with. This pipe runs up through the center of the house which has three 3/4 branches with each one going to a Honeywell zone valve. One for the top floor, one for half the main and the other for the other half of the main. All the returns are piped in a similar fashion, coming back to the center, close to the center of the house and then back towards the boiler. There is a vent elbow with a brand new auto air vent. The elbow was there for thirty years with an air vent on it, the contractor just put a new vent on it. He was under the impression that an automatic air vent would automatically vent air from the system. That is why he left it there. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. In the mean time, the contractoer put a new boiler in today and I am going to visit there tomorrow. I will report later.

ScottMP

I can't believe he

changed the boiler.

Close that auot vent, if its at the top of the house its the worst spot.

Scott

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Joe_30

Air rises up. If he has a conventional old expansion tank up in the joist area, the pipe up to it must come from a port off the TOP of the air removal device. Otherwise his air device is just has an inverted glass of trapped air.
There is much solid advice on this forum. I learned this much.

Jack Ennis Martin

Air problems in heating system

Well I have finished reading your problem with the air in the sytem and I genuinely can see why you are going bonkers. I would suggest something that is slightly radical: but, may work. Write to Dan and ask him for his recommendation on the best heating contractor in this area. Explain the problem to him or her and try to set up a meeting between this person and your client. Techs like to talk to techs.Pay for the four hours labour this person expends on both your behalfs and go home and sleep a night without nightmares. The only other solution is gently suggest that this chap might be happier working at a convience store before his ulcers or heart attack claims him. This is a very clear case of the apprentice not being taught by the journeyman -- a nasty conlusion but in the final analysis true. Good Luck Jack Ennis Martin

Slingshot_2

Clarify

The air vent is not at the top of the house. It is at the top of the boiler. I am still curious why air vents were invented if they don't really vent air. I understand that the air will be absorbed by the water under certaon conditions but shouldn't the air scoop/auto air vent combo take care of any air that may have passed through the boiler? And why wouldn't an air vent under 15-20lbs let an accumulation of air out? I am hearing everyone's comments about taking the air vent off and changing the E/T for a diaphram type but can someone elaborate a little more on why exactly. I really appreciate your input. Thanks.

John Ruhnke

How air enters heating systems..............

Hi,

First thing there are only three ways to get air in your system.

1) Through the feed valve dissolved in the water. Shut the feed valve off for a few days and that will tell you if you have a leak that causes excess air from the feed valve. If the system holds then this option is not the problem.

2) Through non barrier tubing by oxygen diffusion. Look at the tubing if it has an oxygen barrier then this option is not the problem.

3) through leaks in the system when the system is under a vacuum

From the situation that you are describing, the most logical answer is 3. Look at the higher floors in the building. Look at the pressure on the boiler. Subtract 1 pound for every 2.31 feet the upper heating pipes are above the gauge you are looking at. If the gauge reads 12 pounds and the radiator on the second floor is 35ft up then the pressure at the radiator would be -3 pounds. The radiator would be under a vacuum. Any leak or any autovent on that radiator would suck air into the system. All you have to do is raise the pressure and find the leak. Fix the leak and your problem will be solved.

John Ruhnke

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Boiler Guy

I believe

Joe --2 posts back is on the right track. Where does the fresh water enter the system? IMHO it should enter the bottom of the air scoop @ the PONPC. This particular expansion tank should then be connected to the top of the scoop. That said however, this may only be a 1/8 tapping, therefore not large enough to provide both expansion and air elimination effectively. Install a x-trol.