Type of steam system?

Greg_25

Can anyone tell me what type of 2 pipe steam system this might be? No traps. All returns from rads go into the central air vent/tank.Some tee together first ,then enter tank. End of main drops directly down into the wet return,no air vent there. I have a few of these systems in my area (central P.A),and all are working fine except this one. The others have single lever type supply valves which,i'm guessing,have orfices in them. These valves are different and i'm trying to figure out whats stoping the steam from entering the returns. Downstairs radiators are fire hot ,upstairs radiators only get hot half way down at most.The check valve in the pic is in the single line coming out of the bottom of the tank into the wet return.I'm not really sure why it's even there because there is an equalizer & hartford loop at the boiler , but i took it out and cleaned it anyway.It was'nt stuck closed, the tank was empty when i took it off.

Damian_2

Same Question-Holohan references it but doesn't deal w/it

I have never seem a schematic that looks like my steam system. i am trying to optimize the operating cost of this thing, but can't even find out how to properly maintain it other than regular blow-downs.

1907 Chicago Queen Anne 2 pipe, two valves at each rad and no traps on return. Can't find any air vents. McLean-Weil 175K BTU looks like 50's vintage. (I'd love to know how to findout the age of this thing.)Replaced McDonnell Miller LWC four or so years ago.

Return seems to flow into this huge honking vertical pipe (8" diameter by 6 feet tall). Most returns come in high (dry) and one set comes in wet into the bottom.

Some radiators run hotter than others. But at normal winter temps system works to the point and residents of two bedroom complain about the heat. This year, during the two really cold spells, (0 to 5 below)house stabilizes at 62-64 degrees no matter where t stat is set. Some improvement when I shut off a couple of the upstairs rads. Than, without warning, house warms up again.

Anyone know what kind of system this is? Any thoughts

Boilerpro_3

Any Pictures

Of both rad valves. The huge honking thing, and another other contrations on the piping....they could be lurking anywhere.

Boilerpro

Dale

Tank

I wonder if the old tank was kind of a high point wet return acting as a steam seal. I would think that it should have a water level (condensate level) in it. I guess I would add water and see if it held it to perhaps some sort of dip tube level that prevents gravity draining to the boiler. The best thing would be to check a working system for the tank specifics. Is there any chance the tank was once some sort of heat exchanger for the domestic hot water?

Greg_25

Tank

Good idea on the dip tube,i'll check into that.I don't think it was a heat x-changer because the two side taps that tee together and go into the main vent, and the end taps for the dry returns are all open to each other.( Main vent works fine).

Greg_25

Tank

Good idea on the dip tube,i'll check into that.I don't think it was a heat x-changer because the two side taps that tee together and go into the main vent, and the end taps for the dry returns are all open to each other.( Main vent works fine).What would be the purpose of maintaining a condensate level in the tank?Just curious.

Steamhead

Might be an imitation Moline

That system used two valves and no vents on each radiator. Air vented thru a dry return and out thru an air trap via an ejector and condensing pipe.

The tank on this one is probably an air-separation chamber. I've seen cast-iron variations of this idea. Basically it was a large space for air to vent out of, and water to drop back to the boiler.

Have you found any manufacturer's info on this system?

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Steamhead

The \"Huge Honking Vertical Pipe\"

might a Broomell, VECO or similar regulator unit. These were used to control the draft dampers on the boiler. Or it might be an air-separation chamber as outlined above.

Is there a sight glass on it? Have you found any manufacturer's info on the system other than the boiler?

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gerry gill

greg- have you

removed a radiator and looked into the valves to determine if they have orifices? they could also have a graduated disc like some mouats or broomell does..you would need to look inside one..need more pictures to help more..looks like a facinating system tho..

gerry gill

steamhead, is it possible

the 8'' diameter pipe 6 ft. tall is a ''loop seal''...internal dip tube type...?? i'd love to see a picture..

Steamhead

Possibly

but it would have to do more than that, since all the dry returns come into it. It almost certainly contains a vent, or a pipe connection to the chimney like the Broomell and similar systems had.

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gerry gill

I hope he posts a picture..

it would be great to see..facinating stuff this steam is..

Greg_25

Thanks for the reply. The only name i could find was "National Radiator Co." and that was on the radiator valves themselves.The valve handles are all wooden around the outside.

Greg_25

No ,i have'nt removed any valves yet,but curiosity is getting the best of me so looks like i'm gonna have to . There has to be something there to stop the steam from entering the returns because there is nothing in the basement that will.

gerry gill

man Greg,

i wouldn't be able to sleep at night without looking inside one of those..i do love a mystery..

gerry gill

greg- out of curiosity

when was the house built?

Damian_2

I will try to photo for tomorrow. Damn thing was working like a pro when I got home yesterday and didn't have my digital w/ me

Damian_2

photos tomorrow

like I said. Came hoe from work and damned thing was working like a pro. .Jpegs tomorrow.

Greg_25

Not sure when the house was built.I'll ask the homeowner when i go back.

Damian_2

Name that system Photos

here are the photos. reread Dan's book. Apologies to Dan from first e-mail. found a sort of looks like but not quite.....

COMMENTS:
Fuzzy pressuretrol shot. Differential set at 1.5, indicated as subtractive. System set at 0

on bottom of the large pipe, note the take off. This appears to be a small return carrying 2 rads. It runs high until it gets to the boiler, then does a 6 foot drop to go into the bottom of the pipe. All other returns seem to come in high.

Issue 1. System seems to short cycle. In thepast, have had system to 10 below (outdoors) w/o problem this year, housed holds at temperature (70 degrees while I was testing this) until about 0 but then can't hold much above 62. House has been gutted and insulated, lots of new windows and storms on those that weren't, so heat load should be way down. How do I start debugging the 0 degree threshold. At 175KBTUH and assuming 65% efficiency, this boiler capacity is 2 1/2 to 3 times calculated heat loss using -10 as bottom ASHRAE calc limit.

Issue 2. With gas at 82 cents a therm from the People Gas Robber Barons, Where do I start to optimize this thing?

Scary. at 53, if I learn enough steam, I will one day join the fraternity of "dead men".

don_52

vapor....

sure does look like the remnants of a vapor
system, the part that looks like a horn is
the eductor / ejector and the "honkin" part
is the diffuser / condenser, aaaahhh...

sub-atmospheric, Dave B (boilerpro) see's
quite a bit of these out in his area.

i'm sure the lads will illuminate this further...

attachment is a small eductor

Steamhead

Your air vent

is that thing in the top of the Big Honking Pipe. As was typical on Vapor systems, that's probably the only air vent in the system. Not sure why there is a pipe dropping from the outlet of the vent, unless it dropped into a long-gone mercury seal as in the Morgan, KMC and early Trane systems. I've never seen a vent like that before. Did you find any name on it? And are there vent traps at the ends of your steam mains routing air from the steam mains into the dry returns?

The B.H.P itself looks like an air-separation chamber. But is that a sight-glass fitting on the bottom?

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gerry gill

in the ''big honking pipe'' picture

there is a fitting on top of the pipe..it has some wording on it..can you chip the paint off it and tell us what it says? perhaps a manufacturers name hopefully..

gerry gill

ohh, good eye there steamhead

i think your right..that sure does look like a sight glass fitting..i'd love to spend a day in that basement..

Boilerpro_3

Air Vent?

That pipe coming off the top of what appears to be the air vent continues into the next room. Wonder what its connected to? Maybe to a condensor radiator or pipe then to the chimney at one time? Wonder how the two rads that return at the bottom get vented. Maybe they wre the condeansor rads?
That does look like a sight glass fitting.

I was thinking the same theing about the dropping pipe into a seal.

I can't really see what that is on top of the pipe off the top of the likely vent?

What is the big insulated pipe coming in the side of the BHP, I wonder. I would think that it the dry return but, that is suppoesed to be the one connected to the vent.

I am beginning to think that some poor hapless contractor that installed the boiler got his dry returns and condesnor pipes mixed up....I have see it before.

Boilerpro

Damian_2

The dry return comes into the top of the BHP and is uninsulated.

The steam supply is the insulated line next to it. The two run side-by-side to the rear risers.

The weird part is that it looks like there is a wet return from two rads at the front of the house that comes into the bottom of the BHP. Those are the ones that never heat fully. Tht's been a minor issue since they serve the living room which has the T-stat. The living room runs a little cool and upstairs is hot, so we balance by shutting off rads on the second floor.

I'll show on the mapping exercise

I am going to map the system this weekend. I can .pdf and post the sketch for everyone on Monday.

Boilerpro_3

Also,

Could you post a pic of the BHP so we could se the whole thing from a couple of angles. Also, Its hard to make out that "thing" on tope of the return line.

Boilerpro