I'm a Taco guy.......

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

but I just had a brand-changing experience. We had a Taco 0010 on a radiant system and the owner complained about the noise from the pump. I replaced it with a Grundfos 26-64 which has a higher head capability (double) and it was much quieter.

Needless to say, I was impressed.

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Carl PE

I'm a burrito guy.

Of course, I'm kidding you.

I don't mind a little noise, though. People are less likely to call and tell you it doesn't work if they can hear it.

Kal Row

i happen to be a grundfos guy...but...

one isnt quieter then the other - if all the air and dirt is out, then both are equivlantly quiet

grundfos just has a much broader pump product line - and since they moved to the usa from germany - they have been cheaper

Constantin

Interesting you say that...

... as you may recall, all my secondary manifolds are fed by Grundfos 15-58's (currently set to hi). It's the only thing I hear inside the house... a very quiet roar that is not unlike the noise that a properly ducted AC system makes.

Granted, we may discover that all of the pumps can run at lower speeds and hence will change the amplitude and pitch of the noise. Plus, once all the tubing is hidden under the floor, there will be less exposed surface to vibrate the air with. Yet, the principal source seems to be the main pipe and manifold, not the individual tube circuits.

While I hate to nitpick, I do hope that eventually the distribution system will be as silent as the rest of the heating system.

ScottMP

Why are they

set to high ?

Scott

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Constantin

That's the thing...

... the whole heating system is currently set up in the most basic manner possible while the rest of the house construction is going on. Now that we have plastered walls, etc. there will be a flurry of activity as temperature controllers, etc. can finally be installed.

I presume that my heating contractor will at that point start fine-tuning the system. However, I suspect that even on the low setting a 15-58FC is close to being oversized feeding a manifold that supplies heat to a mere 700 ft² of space via 3/8" tubes on 9" centers. The roar we hear now is likely the result of excessive flow speeds...

I suppose I could fire up Siggys HDS and see for myself... Wheeee! :-)

Kal Row

are those 15-58's, FC's by any chance ...

cause the outlet spring checks make flow noise on those a lot - (personal experiance) - you really need 12pipe diameters preceeding an outletcheck for laminar flow

Constantin

You may be onto something!

Here is a pic of the manifold as constructed... there definitely aren't 12 pipe diameters between the manifold and the 15-58FC's... oh dear, that's going to be a PITA for the contractor to fix...

On the design front with Siggy's HDS, it appears that the 15-58FC will deliver 50% more liquid than the circuits need, even at the lowest speed setting. If I assume 6 circuits in the 700 sq ft area, that gives me about 0.63GPM at hi-speed and 0.46 GPM at low speed.

Considering that the heat load on a design day does not exceed 13kBTU, having enough water flowing to deliver 18kBTU seems like a bit of overkill. Is 50% more flow than needed going to be an issue? We seem to remain well below the magic 4ft/s flow speed regardless of the pump speed (1.5ft/s @ low to 2.1 ft/s @ high), so I don't think I need to worry about that as much as the FC issue on the manifold.

PS: The wiring hasn't been addressed yet... This system is currently just rigged to provide a comfortable working environment for all the guys on the job.

Kal Row

they cant be..cause the check is in the pump...

that why taco puts it in the inlet, which is bad for NPSH, usually not a problem but could be on a 190+ primary loop, where the pressure drop across the check can cause the 190+ water to flash a little and cavitate the pump – so it a trade off – also check for dirt – pop the discharge flange and pull the check – make sure it clean and free

what they didn’t tell ya, is that “pump away” is noisier – oops too late

anyway slow them down, and flowcontrol them down – will help with noise – and purge and purge and purge, with a clear plastic hose until you get absa-blumin-lutly no air

and run up the pressure on the feeder – with pump away, you can have 25lb on the boiler’s gauge when hot, but actually have 30lb in the system loop –really keeps the air out – when you have a good pressure – you will have to air charge the expansion tank to whatever the cold static pressure is – I usually start with 17lb in my tanks

hr

The way the pumps are mounted

has an awful lot to do with the noise they transfer to the wall, framing, interior space.

If all the piping is mounted with those rubber unistrut clamps the noise transfered to the interior spaces is greatly limited.

If a tree falls in the forest and know one is around to hear it ...

You think the Tacos are noisey try bolting a B&G PL series to a homeowners wall

I've worked on a couple manufactured hydro panels with high head PL bolted to them, yikes! Almost as bad as a central vac system.

I have a friend that is involved with music hall construction at a SUNY project in NY. It amazes me the lengths they go to to quiet all the mechanical components from the sound hall. Lots of specialty brackets and devices for mounting piping and duct work for noise sensitive jobs. Mainly springs, rubber connections, and thick insulation.

hot rod

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Kal Row

where is the differential pressure bypass???

if only one zone is on, where is the rest of the system loops's flow and head going? - that too, will make noise and might even pop the checks on the other zones and give ghost flow

Kal Row

plus the new seismic protection rules on comercial installs..

everything needs a second support and anti sway bracket now, dont forget to factor that in if you live in the city
i think every major city in the usa has that rule now

Constantin

So what you're saying is...

As a first measure, slow the speed down since it seems to be excessive for the area/BTU's etc. Also, purge until there is no air in the system whatsoever. Could you describe that process a bit further, perhaps with a diagram so someone like me who has never done it before can understand the process?

We have a big vent on the main manifold, downstream from the boiler and upstream from the 4-way valve you see in the pic above. Is that vent not sufficient to keep the system air-free?

If speed control and purging doesn't work, I guess we need to consider other measures, up to fixing the main manifold so that the manifold to pump distance is at least a foot, right? Plus, if we go that far, I might as well insist on full-flow ball-valves upstream and downstream of the 15-58's... that should make service calls/swapouts much simpler, quicker, etc.

The system pressure is maintained to a minimum of 12psi, with increases up to 15+ psi at full fire.

Constantin

Interesting Points...

However, in this case, I think the noise has less to do with wall-transmission... For example, when I'm on the second floor in the master bedroom (where we have a manifold), I can clearly hear the "roar" of the heating system, even though there is no way it could be via conduction in the framing (otherwise, the noise would increase as I would approach the core of the building, which it doesn't.

In other words, I can stand on either side of a wall, and the side that has a exposed manifold is signifcantly louder than the side that has mere wall-board in the way. As can be expected, the noise from the pumps is traveling up the Cu pipes to the manifolds.

I suppose we could do a much better job of dampening the pumps if we were to "support", or rather clamp, them in place in the basement by applying a rubberized collar just upstream and downstream of the pump flanges, right? If the clamps had a stiff, reliable connection to a high-mass object like 6'x4' 1/4" steel plate, I imagine that all attempts at vibration will come to a rather sudden end...

Constantin

Good question...

The only pumps that are accessible are the sub-manifold-supplies mounted on the primary manifold that you can see in the pic above.

I'm not sure if the Vitola has an internal pump or not, but there is no external pump between the Vitola and the 4-way valve.

So, as best as I can tell, there is no flow unless one of the pumps on the primary manifold fires. If true, there would be no ghost flow issues since there is no pressure trying to force the other check valves open.

Joe Mattiello

The 0010 has a relatively flat curve so I don't think a by-pass valve is required. I agree with some of the potential causes that were brought up this discussion, that the mounting position, pump orientation, mounting the pump to the wall in the mechanical room, all contribute to the noise problem I’m convinced the noise is system related, because everyone knows that Taco cartridge circulators run quiet. Taco, Inc.
Joe Mattiello
Technical Service Technician
joemat@taco-hvac.com
401-942-8000 X 484
www.taco-hvac.com

Kal Row

i purge with line pressure and boiler isolated...

I always pipe my feed into the air eliminator, and have ball valves on the boiler supply and return line, I also pipe a bypass feed ball valve around the pressure regulator,

on my systems there is a clear plastic purging manifold, – but you can make yourself a clear vinyl hose, and hook it to each drain at a time, close ALL the ball valves as we do one zone at a time and we do this with the system cold,

now lift the little lever on the feeder to give full pressure to system,
then you open the supply ball valve of the zone the hose is hooked to, and open it’s drain too, and you will get full flow, let it flush until no more bubbles, (may take a while) close valves and do same for all other zones

if boiler isn’t isolated the relief valve will pop better have a pail underneath it


as for correct pressure:
water produces 1 pond of pressure for every 28inches of height
take the highest point in the system (could be in the attic) and subtract the lowest point, to get total height in ft, divide by 2.33 to get base static pressure at 60f, now add 5lb cause you want some pressure at the highest point, and 5lb for the pumps differential, and set the feeder to this pressure, and the expansion tank to this air pressure (with the tank out of the system of course) – now let the system run up to 180 and make sure the boilers pressure remains below 26, as after that, the relief will seep and oxygenate your system with fresh water continuously – “berry-berry-baaaad” – if it gets to high drain a little and set the feeder lower by the “over” amount when cold again – if the expansion tank is to small you will never get the hot/cold pressures right

Kal Row

say joe, \"real taco guy\"

the 0011 doesnt have enough head to pop the checks on a 15-58fc?
- they have a really light springs - in fact a diffrential bypass's spring (like a d146) is harder and might not even help - i alwyas put Zone valves on the supply - puts me in control of where the heat goes

Weezbo

I like Tacos also.

i Tell the taco guy ta co he saus TAY co isay Taco he say TAy co..well says i youd starve to death looking for a TAY co in meyheco :)and supply many people with countless hours of comic relife. *~/:)..........As for sound,(and i am indeed being in the light today)there is very little sonic differences in either the Taco or grunfoss.each has its place and value so i not loathe to use either one..The harmonic vibrations of the two of comparable size in the case of say a 006 and a15-42 on 1st speed is basically the same. air is the enemy just about always ,purging gets alot of it pump orientation and place ment helps,as does running at a higher pressure ...to me, zone valves are the thought i'd say would help the most,and using pex leaders to the distribution loops(mini header)would help reduce harmonics also....and like i said a long time ago i got into the pump plan vs zone valves, ...if you put a pump on every zone just because you Can i call that "PUMPING AWAY PUMP HAPPY" these are actually recirculators,steam has the heat headed up and the water headed down,gravity moves the water down and the boiler moves the hoter water up..pumps,well pumps are a different deal they can Make Fluids do things they really arent inclined to do so, zoning and piping temerature and pressure ,arrangements that allow less use of "Pumps" ,to me ,is really a better way to roll. ...for me bringing pex out of the wall or floor with a transistion to copper is basically my prefered method some times it aint an ideal world *~/:) and honestly if i was in mexico and asked for a grunfos i would probably starve to death especially if what i really needed was a Taco