Your onion about Onyx tubing, Please! (Leo G)

Leo G_99

to decide whether to try this tubing or not. We have quite a few in-joist jobs coming up. Also, is there any kind of heat tranfer plate that can be used with this tubing?

Leo G

J.C.A._3

Personally,

My onion is big enough to make your eyes water...But that's just me. Chris

Troy_3

Onix

It's a little small for a garden hose. If you find a use I have 2000' that we ripped out.Someone actually put it in a house. Not me. I'll stick with pex and PAP. I guess that is why they make chocolate and vanilla. I need to have complete confidence in a product before I will put my name on it. And I don't even have a little confidence in rubber. Then I won't staple pex under a floor without thermofin plates either. I keep hearing my fathers words "If you bother to do something you might as well do it right the first time." I know pex has lasted on every job I've done since '91. I've removed way too much rubber that either failed all together or just failed to heat adequately. With a badly designed or installed pex job I can add plates and increase the output. With rubber You are limited and you paid more for it. Hello! Just one mans opinion!

Boilerpro_3

I have used it, as have many others here

I have it in my own home. It is more expensive to buy, but labor savings are dramatic. In addition, you can get good heat output without resorting to plates. If you need higher heat output you can go to 4 inches on center. I suspect at 4 inches on center the output approaces pex with plates and material costs are about the same as pex with plates, but labor is still much lower.
Also, Onix is not rubber, but another plastic. Calling it rubber is to be misinformed.
Another great advantage of Onix is that it is silent in operation because it expands very little when heated and can squirm without making noise. It also is nearly impossible to damage during installation, no potential kinking, and remains flexible in cold weather. Oh course, since it is so flexible it needs lots of support, so open air runs need care, a bit of a hassle.
While I use a lot of Pex, to say Onix should not be used and always be torn out or will not perform properly is , in my opinion, untrue. I have had no failures, having avoided the short production run of Entran under the Heatway brand name.
As I tell so many, if the Heatway product was so bad, why did Watts, a large respected company, decide to purchase the production and keep Heatway's top people in place? Would any company ever pick up a product line that was inherently problematic in our sue happy society?

Give it a try. If you have used Pex in joists before you'll enjoy installing Onix. In fact, as I understand, the folks that developed Onix, were once Pex installers that decided there had to be any easier way to install radiant tubing.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I'll gladly take Onix off your hands

I am thinking of doing my first floor in my 1906 home with a subfloor full of nails. Just E-mail me!

Boilerpro

Tom_35

Onix tubing

And if BoilerPro doesn't want it all, I'll take the rest.

Tom A.

Robert O'Connor_7

Onix

Tom, and if you don't want it, I'll take it. Great stuff! Got it in my own house and could use some more for future basement zone...Robert O'Connor/NJ

radiant_4

We had onix staple up without plates under the first floor. Replaced it with thermofins and pex because contractor said it would heat better (system has problems but HP is still providing same water temp.) No more heat in rooms than before, and in fact, I believe less; although contractor won't believe it. So can't say plates and pex is better than onix; in our case anyway. And the plates do cause some snapping when heating.

Bill Nye_2

I have it

I have it in my house. My supplier gave me a little "incentive" to buy it for my own personal use.

My basement was very difficult because of framing. I had to "thread the shoelace" so to speak. I don't think I could have used pex w/o kinking. 5-6 yrs now, no noise no issues. Insulated below w/foil faced fiberglass insulation w/2"air gap. 130° max @ 0° day. 72° room temp.

I know plates transfer more heat but for the time and money this worked out and I would do it again. I have done the second floor in and old house with onyx and couldn't imagine trying to fish anything else where I put this stuff.

Works great for toe space convector installs, a couple of adapters and a few feet of hose and your done. No soldering inside the cabinet, no vibration noise.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Where's the beef!

As ME said the other day, "we're not a one-tube shop anymore, but Wirsbo is still my first choice" (I think that was it). We're not either and never were. We've used just about everyone's products - especially when work is directed our way by a specific manufacturer. Wouldn't be kosher to bite the hand that feeds!

On the other hand, if a specific product gave me any real concerns, I'd politely decline the invitation.

We too have used the Onyx tubing and it has some desirable qualities. For instance: in a staple-up application under hardwood flooring (with a proper heat loss calc and control design), no nails needed to be removed and the tube snaked around that forrest of knuckle-jabbers slicker than grass through a goose; in another instance, we were faced with a shoelace job too (as mentioned above) and there is no way PEX could have been utilized unless we'd have removed all of the bathroom's plumbing lines first; and although we could have used PEX in a warehouse job, the Onyx rolled out very quickly and stayed where it laid without so much as a single recoil, which allowed me to shuffle the tubing runs prior to fastening.

Onyx drawback? It weighs a ton(G)!

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Mark Hunt

I've got


thousands of feet of it installed, and we have never had a problem.

Heatway is a great company, with great people.

Mark H

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John L.

I have Entran III in my house

Staple up, 8" O.C., Reflextx foil insl., Today's Outdoor 3* F., Mix supply 130* F., Indoor 70*F. I love my radiant floor.
I have used Onix on other jobs. Verry good results.
John L.

tls_9

onyx

I like onyx, never had a problem with it.
of course, i used a lot of entran back then, liked it, never had a problem with that. have never heard any system i put in or worked on has had a problem to this day.

goes in much easer than pex.

wether it heats is a matter first of design, then if it was installed to design and in a proper maner.

tuby

Leo G_99

well,

then, it sounds like a go for the Onyx. But I am now (thanx to all of you here @ The Wall) a firm believer in HTP's. So, of course, all of my quotes contain a reference to them, and I have made the contractors either grind all the nail ends off in the cavaties, or for new construction, they have spent a few dollars more by thickening the subfloor.

So is there any plates, like say a 1/2" pex plate for the onyx 3/8" tubing or some such???

Leo G

Ted_8

Physical Impossibility

I read your post about Onix and I too use it for joist bay applications but I do have to disagree with your assumptions about it giving equal performance to pex with plates. I used the ashrae chapter on radiant heating and cooling to do some calculations. The factor Rt is the one to look at as it is the resistance of the tube wall. It says that Rt= the log of (Od/Id)/2*3.14*thermal conductivity. Conductivity of pex is listed as .22 and Watts Radiant lists Onix as .17. The wall thickness of Onix is also greater then pex so the resistance is increased even more. Using these calculations it can be assumed that pex would out perform Onix in an equal application at identical spacing. The math also has a calculation for Rs which is the resistance between the tube and the panel which would include the air space around the Onix vs the conductivity of the aluminum. I will check with Radiant Engineering to see what the contact are of there plates is and then run the calculations. I am certain that it is a no win situation for any type of staple up.

Chris

Tom_35

No Plates

Plates are not necessary with Onyx. I don't know if they will fit the tubing anyway. We called Watts Radiant when we first started looking at Onyx about plates, and they said not to mess with them.

Besides, going with plates will keep you from being able to snake the tubing around to miss the nails.

Be sure to use the correct stapler and the correct air pressure on the air compressor when attaching the staples.

Tom A

hr

The answer is in the numbers

Not a problem to use staple up or suspended applications as long as you do the math. For the most part the temperatures will need to be higher to get the output of the conductive aluminum transfer plates.

I'd be careful if the "required" supply approch 160- 170 required supply. Even with the 10° loss through the tube wall that may be too hot for extended contact with engineered or glued products.

Intallers get into trouble when they ignore the need for supplemental heat when the design software shows it is required. If you can't make the load with 160- 170 supply, add the additional in another for of emitter and save yourself those design day low heat calls

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,76518,00.html

hot rod

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Boilerpro_3

I was speaking about 4 inch Onix vs 8 Inch Pex with plates

Pex with plates would certainly give you more btus per square foot on the same spacing. What I was comparing was overall installed cost for material and then also labor to get high rats of btu's per square foot. Pex is cheaper than Onix, however, Pex with good plates is about the same price as 4 inch OC Onix, but labor for Onix should be lower.

Boilerpro

Darin Cook_3

The TRUTH of the matter

We have installed miles of Onix. But there is one thing we have always done to insure a trouble-free installation for our customers. We use the trusty Heatway design software. Some other people on this post have brought up the right answer to the " will staple-up work " question. Use your design software and obey it. Do your homework. Input the correct information into the software. If you need supplemental heat, install it. Floors, depending on a number of variables, will only have a output of X number of BTU's per square foot. Obey those numbers. Everytime we get a call to "fix" someone else's radiant job that is a staple-up, tubing was just stapled-up with no design what so-ever done. That also goes hand-in-hand with no controls to control water temperature out to zone. Be the professional that people want to hire. Do the required calculations so that you will sleep easy at night knowing that your jobs will WORK.








Darin

Troy_3

Onix

Not trying to be confrontational. Just trying to learn. Does anyone know what the expected life for onix tube is? What is the warrentee? What is the limit of their liability policy if it does fail? Inquiring minds need to know.

hr

The reason for the 4\" oc

needed with EPDM is the lack of "ideal" heat transfer the aluminum transfer plates can offer, in my opinion. Even at 4" oc the actual contact patch of EPDM to the floor panel is very small when considering conduction transfer. Mainly radiation and convection transfer.

I've been told by Watts engineers that 6" oc is about as good as it gets, and 4" adds very little additional output for the extra costs. If 8" oc in a 16" joist space is not getting the load, for whatever reason, it may be time to bring in second stage supplemental heat, in my opinion.

Keep in mind the goal is to get the floor surface to a temperature of say 80° or more to overcome the building load. The floor panel cares little of the mechanism used to get this surface temperature to the needed temperature.

Packing ANY tube 4" oc seems to prove that fluid to outer tube wall, and the tube wall to floor panel connection is a "weaker" method of heat transfer than a conduction connection, allowed by tight fitting tube to heat transfer plate connection.

When you hook a copper wire into a circuit breaker do you leave the screw loose?

With 4" oc you are merely attempting to build a tubular EPDM transfer plate

Don't know that the suspended tube applications ever go to tighter than 8" oc before they suggest supplemental?

Watts Radiant does offet aluminum transfer plates in their catalog, for pex tube. Be nice to see them offer Onix accelerator plates for jobs that ocassionally fall short due to floor covering changes, additional window square footage added, loose construction methods, or whatever.

I see the future of dry radiant systems belonging to designs that can meet the load with the lowest possible supply temperatures. This plays well to the hi efficiency boiler segment that is blossoming before our eyes. Why use 150,160, or hotter supply temperatures when 120 or less can meet the load at the higher efficiencies?

Also dovetails nicely with heat pumps temperatures, and solar driven radiant when you design around the lowest possible temperatures

hot rod

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Boilerpro_3

4 inches OC

It was standard design for heatway and watts to use 4 inches oc under windows about half the height of the windows to accomodate the higher loads on the floor. I hadn't heard of the transfer plates yet for EPDM.
I agree that pex with plates will give better transfer, but I am also looking at installed cost per btu available from the system...assuming a given water temp. Basically how much bang for your buck. 4 inch Oc onix may be less expensive overall than pex with plates and only have a small sacrifice in water temps to achieve the same output. I'd love to see a Thermographic test run with EPDM at 4 inches oc along with the others that have been run. I suspect longer test times would be needed to even out the quick response of plates versus other methods of installation.

Watts really needs to work on getting the wall thickness down.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

Some answers

Expected life....indefinite, expected to outlast the structure it is installed in like most other plastics. Warranty is 25 years. From what I read in the literature.....Warranty covers tubing, materials and shipping....not sure about any damage caused by failures. Warranty does not cover defective installation, use of other compainies manifolds, and tubing operated above its design temperature limit...210F.

I'd talk to the folks at Watts for the complete scoop.

Still got that 2000 feet of ONix?

Boilerpro

hr

Gotten fat over the years

The Onix of today is a lot heavier walled than the earliest versions. The original Entrans and twintran was a very flexible product. A lot of enginering has gone into that product over the years. Keeping the O2 at bay, temperature and pressure requirements and jobsite handling have all been considered.

If time is a consideration the ASHRAE study cleared up the questions regarding ramp up and output between the staple up and transfer plate. Although I believe pex was used in both tests.

In my climate the ability to ramp up quickly has some advantages to consider.

These are some of the results from the ASHRAE study and some pex, EPDM, copper comparisons from a PM Engineer article.

The ASHRAE study concluded that "heat transfer plates increase the heat transferred to the occupied space by between 160- 172%, depending on where the insulation was positioned. The percent increase is 172% when the insulation is backing the tubes at 5/8" from the radiant panel and 160% when the insulation is 2" below the panel."

The important thing to know is the pros and cons of the different installation methods. A time and place for all, when installed properly, according to design

hot rod

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hr

Yeah, the early

Entran was a nice flexible thinwalled tube, although not nearly the "thin" wall thickness of Solaroll, which I believe was the initial motivation to develop Heatway EPDM transfer hose.

Acceleration can make a big difference in a climate that sees wide frequent temperature swings like my area.

The RPA/ASHRAE study concluded "heat transfer plates increases the heat that is transfered to the occupied space by between 160-172% depending on where the insulation is placed." I believe these tests were with pex with and without plates. But that's a big % number.

All I caution is that a loss calc and design is properly done and the pros and cons be considered when choosing a particular installation method. They can, and do, all provide excellent comfort and performance when installed properly.

hot rod

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Boilerpro_3

Yep,

> Entran was a nice flexible thinwalled tube,

> although not nearly the "thin" wall thickness of

> Solaroll, which I believe was the initial

> motivation to develop Heatway EPDM transfer

> hose.

>

> Acceleration can make a big difference

> in a climate that sees wide frequent temperature

> swings like my area.

>

> The RPA/ASHRAE study

> concluded "heat transfer plates increases the

> heat that is transfered to the occupied space by

> between 160-172% depending on where the

> insulation is placed." I believe these tests

> were with pex with and without plates. But

> that's a big % number.

>

> All I caution is that a

> loss calc and design is properly done and the

> pros and cons be considered when choosing a

> particular installation method. They can, and

> do, all provide excellent comfort and performance

> when installed properly.

>

> hot rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Boilerpro_3

Yep,

Doing your home will help keep you out of trouble. I never cease to be amazed at the number of undesigned or incorrectly designed radiant systems going in. No design is done with forced air around here, so they don't do it with radiant. Oh course, you still have to relie on the siding contractor, window installer, insulator and builder to match the calcs. Wall hung radiant sounds better all the time, when taking into account all the uncontrolled variables and the ease of room by room control.

Boilerpro

Ted_8

The Math!

The math says that in a side by side comparison 1/2" pex at 10" on center will provide the same amount of btu/sqft at the same supply water temperature as 1/2" Onix at 4" on center. Therefore the case against plates is without merrit. You just can't beat plates for joist heating at the lowest possible supply water temperatures.

Chris