Hefty Bill

Josh_3

Got Dan's book right before it started getting cold here in Southeast Michigan a few months ago. One Pipe Steam system. House is about 80 years old or so. I know the house doesn't have the best insulation overall on it, but my most recent heating bill came and it was crazy.

Here is what happens to my heat on a regular basis.

If it is 20 degrees or below outside, the heat runs, the house warms up. Soon after the temperature in the room with the thermostat falls again, and the heat kicks on again. On these coldest of days (20 and below), the downstairs is very comfortable and the upstairs turns into a sauna.

If the temperature is 20 degrees and above (assuming it's still cold enough for heat) -- the heat kicks on, the downstairs warms up, but the upstairs radiators really don't heat up. The downstairs is about 70 degrees, and the upstairs is about 62.

The pipes in the basement were not insulated at all really a few months ago. I went down there and stuck a bunch of insulation up, particularly near the boiler. The result of this was to even out the heat in the house -- not a lot, just a bit (but enough to notice). So it the disparities I mentioned above were worse before the insulation. However I could still potentially put more insulation up on the pipes (I ran out the day I was doing it, and haven't had time to work on it again yet).

I got my december heating bill and it killed me. Almost $300 for a 1800 square foot home. I found myself so disappointed, I had put so much time in trying to understand the steam heating system in my house and trying to tune the system that it just broke my heart to see that bill. It was the same last year (this is our second year in the house). And the water hammer in the basement actually got worse this year.

I guess I'm wondering if I just didn't really learn anything. My pressure was set at 4 when I got the book, I turned it down to .5. I checked the air vents on the radiators (blew in em and everything, cleaned a couple though there weren't really that plugged up). Insulated pipes in the basement as I mentioned. Thought the hammer I heard was from a radiator, repitched it, but turns it it must be in the main pipes below the radiator. Completely drained out my boiler, the return line, the water is actually almost clean enough to drink in there now (when i first did it, it was pitch black).



I guess my questions are

(1) Is it common for the room with the thermostat to heat so quickly that the boiler shuts off and the radiators upstairs don't really heat up? Could I still need more insulation downstairs?.

(2) Have I reached a point where the main reason my bills are so high has less to do with the steam heat and more to do with just poor home insulation?

I guess, in the end, if I have to ask these questions, I really don't understand how Steam Heat is supposed to work.

Anyway, last time I posted in here I got some good tips, and thought I would give it a try again. However I am coming to the conclusion that I might have to sock a little money away and call a heating pro to come in and take a look.

Thanks for any suggestions
-Josh

Constantin

You're describing...

... some classic issues that perhaps have nothing to do with the steam system.

For one, I suspect that you're having severe stack-effects in this home, which is a fancy way of describing how air is whooshing through the house from the bottom up, just like in a chimney. So, I would look for sources of infiltration throughout the house. Are the windows weatherized properly, are the basement walls parged, any fireplaces that have no/badly fitting dampers, etc.

Then, venture into the basement and the attic with a industrial-supply of "Good Stuff" and seal every ceiling/floor penetration that the attic and the basement space has. Buy a Tyvek suit and a respirator if the attic is insulated already, wear thick, disposable gloves and go to town. Unlike what the pink panther ads try to tell us, fiberglass does not stop air movement.

If there is little insulation in the attic, consider blowing in some dense-pack cellulose. The stuff doesn't easily burn, it has infiltration resistance, and it can be easily retrofit into extant spaces. Also consider insulating the basement ceiling after sealing it. The more you retard vertical flow of air through your house, the less likely it will be for your heat to be uneven.

I suspect that the less than uniform heat distribution in your home during not so cold conditions (i.e. 20°F) has a lot to do with badly-vented or badly balanced steam mains. Hence, the steam cannot reach the farther areas in your system, because it cannot displace the air that is in the way.

You mention blowing out the vents on the radiators, but not the vents on the mains. If you haven't done so, read up on them, then come back with dimensions of pipe, a schematic, etc. so that the pro's here can help you size and place the vents on the main for maximum heat distribution.

Lastly, consider getting Thermostatic Steam valves that allow you to fine tune the heating in your home. I don't know if they exist for single-tube systems, but I would like to think so.

In closing, you're doing all the right things but you're only at the beginning of the road to comfortable steam heat. Insulation will only help the system, as will a thorough reading of Dans more comprehensive Lost art of Steam Heating. Hiring a pro is probably a good idea, but I'd vet them first for 1st-class steam knowledge. I look forward to hearing more about the house and the steam system.

Mad Dog

Very good constantin............................................

Yes get us some numbers and dimensions, run length and sizes of mains et cetera. Improper main vents could be your main problem. Try to post pics too. A couple of Gorton Main vents can make all the difference in the world. Also, the radiator vents may work, but are not big enough for the second floor rads. Don't quit now, you'll improve this system and cut your bills. Steam systems are about the most ornery critter you'll ever come across, but they can be tamed. Mad Dog

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Josh_3

> ... some classic issues that perhaps have nothing

> to do with the steam system.

>

> For one, I

> suspect that you're having severe stack-effects

> in this home, which is a fancy way of describing

> how air is whooshing through the house from the

> bottom up, just like in a chimney. So, I would

> look for sources of infiltration throughout the

> house. Are the windows weatherized properly, are

> the basement walls parged, any fireplaces that

> have no/badly fitting dampers, etc.

>

> Then,

> venture into the basement and the attic with a

> industrial-supply of "Good Stuff" and seal every

> ceiling/floor penetration that the attic and the

> basement space has. Buy a Tyvek suit and a

> respirator if the attic is insulated already,

> wear thick, disposable gloves and go to town.

> Unlike what the pink panther ads try to tell us,

> fiberglass does not stop air movement.

>

> If

> there is little insulation in the attic, consider

> blowing in some dense-pack cellulose. The stuff

> doesn't easily burn, it has infiltration

> resistance, and it can be easily retrofit into

> extant spaces. Also consider insulating the

> basement ceiling after sealing it. The more you

> retard vertical flow of air through your house,

> the less likely it will be for your heat to be

> uneven.

>

> I suspect that the less than uniform

> heat distribution in your home during not so cold

> conditions (i.e. 20°F) has a lot to do with

> badly-vented or badly balanced steam mains.

> Hence, the steam cannot reach the farther areas

> in your system, because it cannot displace the

> air that is in the way.

>

> You mention blowing

> out the vents on the radiators, but not the vents

> on the mains. If you haven't done so, read up on

> them, then come back with dimensions of pipe, a

> schematic, etc. so that the pro's here can help

> you size and place the vents on the main for

> maximum heat distribution.

>

> Lastly, consider

> getting Thermostatic Steam valves that allow you

> to fine tune the heating in your home. I don't

> know if they exist for single-tube systems, but I

> would like to think so.

>

> In closing, you're

> doing all the right things but you're only at the

> beginning of the road to comfortable steam heat.

> Insulation will only help the system, as will a

> thorough reading of Dans more comprehensive Lost

> art of Steam Heating. Hiring a pro is probably a

> good idea, but I'd vet them first for 1st-class

> steam knowledge. I look forward to hearing more

> about the house and the steam system.



Constantin --
Thanks for your reply to my post.
After reading it, I went back and retraced my steps from the start. The first time around I did not do a very good job of checking on the vents for the radiators - some were closed a bit. I found that "opening them up" helped some of the radiators get more heat in them.
I then went and checked for the main vents. The one by the boiler looks relatively new and after removing it and checking, seems to be flowing well (it does not have a name on it that I could find, simply says "Taiwan" on the side, oh well).
There was a second main vent that is near the end of the main pipe right before it the pipe dips down below my knees. Someone had painted over the vent. I removed it and cleared it out. We'll see how it performs.
Next, I went into the attic, which already has that cellulose you described. I found no real leakage up there, and the roof is less than a year old as well.
I went into the basement, and I think much of my problem lies there. The windows are those glass block windows which look to have been installed in the last few years. They are leaking severly. I'm not sure the best way to make sure they stop leaking. THere are also some spots around the outer-foundation which could use some sealing and then some insulation. All in all a lot of work to do in the basement to patch things up. I do feel your theory that cold air is coming in down there and making it's way up through my house may be the case for much of my high cost problems.

Josh_3

Thanks


Thanks for replying to my post.
After reading it, I went back and retraced my steps from the start. The first time around I did not do a very good job of checking on the vents for the radiators - some were closed a bit. I found that "opening them up" helped some of the radiators get more heat in them.

I then went and checked for the main vents. The one by the boiler looks relatively new and after removing it and checking, seems to be flowing well (it does not have a name on it that I could find, simply says "Taiwan" on the side, oh well).

There was a second main vent that is near the end of the main pipe right before it the pipe dips down below my knees. Someone had painted over the vent. I removed it and cleared it out. We'll see how it performs. In the day since I did it, there does not seem to be a noticeable difference.

Next, I went into the attic, which already has that cellulose you described. I found no real leakage up there, and the roof is less than a year old as well.
I went into the basement, and I think much of my problem lies there. The windows are those glass block windows which look to have been installed in the last few years. They are leaking severly. I'm not sure the best way to make sure they stop leaking. THere are also some spots around the outer-foundation which could use some sealing and then some insulation. All in all a lot of work to do in the basement to patch things up. I do feel your theory that cold air is coming in down there and making it's way up through my house may be the case for much of my high cost problems.

I will take some digital pics of the boiler room and mains this weekend and hopefully someone can make sense of it all.

The bad water hammer by one of the radiators I still can't quite figure out. First off, to be honest, I'm not sure if it is coming from the radiator or the main pipe right below it in the basement. If I close off the radiator and the hammer is still there, that would eliminate the radiator as being the culprit no? If it is the pipe, I'm not sure of the problem, the pitch in the basement looks proper...again I'll take some pics this weekend.

I do know that the hammer starts really bad when the system starts heating up -- it's almost like clockwork, 5-6 (i forget which) loud bangs then it quiets down. After the boiler has shut off, I will get some intermittent SINGLE bangs afterwards. Again, I am unsure if it is the radiator or the pipes right underneath it.

Anyway I'll "get to work" on these things. Thanks again for replying, I'd like to see what I can get done before I bring in someone who cost more than I can afford. Oh I did a search for someone in my area on this site and found someone close by, but I have not yet received a response. Hopefully they are still in operation

Thanks
-Josh

Constantin

A couple more things...

...an air leak in the attic won't be very visible to the naked eye. The air can move through fiberglass and most forms of cellulose (except dense-pack) without leaving much more than a strip of dirt on the underside (which is dust getting trapped by the fibers). A thermal camera from the local fire department can really help identify "hot spots".

So, did you go up there and push the stuff out of the way around known penetrations (vent stacks, chimney, etc.)? If not, this is where I would start. If those penetrations are sealed, proceed to check the rest of the area. BTW, how deep is the cellulose?

You can parge in and around the window blocks in the basement using any one of the mixes that are compatible. You should be able to get some advice online, then buy the mix at Home Despot or whatnot. If you have a old brick foundation DO NOT use modern concrete mixes for the repointing - use a soft mortar mix instead. Modern concrete is much harder than the old mortar mixes and bricks, causing the bricks to be destroyed if concrete is used.

Your main vents are probably junk. Anything with a "Taiwan" stamp on it is unlikely to be properly sized for a main. Little beats Gorton vents. The usual prescription I have seen here is 1-2 #2 Gorton vents on each main to ensure that the air is purged in a hurry.

As for the water hammer, it could be as simple as a pipe that is no longer pitched correctly, all the way to a valve that is not opening or closing properly. Or, you may have tons of junk in the returns blocking the easy flow of water back to the boiler. In other words, unless it's very apparent, this is one step you might leave to the professionals.

jerry scharf_2

stopping up the glass brick

Josh,

Clear RTV (tile and bath silicone caulk) will do the job very nicely. I use wet fingers to "tool" it into the spots I want it. I would just assume it's all leaking and seal it all. Take a break now and then, the fumes can really build up.

I'm not an expert, but I would assume that I'm starting over on the main vents. Measure them, post the measurements and the fine steam experts here will help you. They tend to recommend better manufacturer's vents, it's such an important part of the system.

jerry

Josh_3

Couple weeks off

Had to take a couple weeks off from my heat project.

I am trying to get the main vent off the line so I can get some recommendations on what to replace it with.

Problem - It is stuck, and I literally spent 90 minutes tonight trying to get it off. Tried W-40. The thing will not budge. Any suggestions on how to remove this thing?

kevin coppinger_4

heat it with ....

a torch.Use a 14-18 " pipe wrench...good leverage. kpc

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t. tekushan

run time

An issue that we had in "my" building (I don't own it. Steam system expense account: $ 0.00) was that the heat anticipator was set too short. Mild temps caused the periphery of the building to run cool. I actually set it longer than the gas valve current rating (too long won't harm the anticipator, too short eventually will). There is more of a temp variation between turn-on and shutdown, but no one seems to mind, especially now that the temps are even throughout the building. Just a thought.

Better look into that water hammer though.

scott75

Do your air vents spit a lot? What is the reading on your pressure guage? Just because you dialed the pressuretrol down doesn't mean it is working. Take it off and clean the pigtail out if you haven't done so already. It gets clogged up pretty easily. If it is clogged, it doesn't work and your boiler will run at higher pressures which makes it less efficient. Also, it could be overfired/oversized. I would deffinately have a professional come in to clean it, and perform a propper combustion test on it. You'll be surprised at how much fuel you can save when it is burning propperly. Good luck. BTW, I'm not a pro at steam although I do have it myself. My boiler is oil fired though. Thanks to this site for all the great info.

Steamhead

Sizing Main Vents

Measure the length and diameter of each steam main. With this info we can tell you what you need.

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Stephan

hoffman #74

Hi
After reading few books recomended on this site, i understood the importance of venting. I decided to buy all new vents(12) and two main vents. The radiator air vents are Hoffman 1A adjustable. The mains air vents recomended by my supplier are Hoffman #74. I now have heat in my radiator but it took forever for the main to get hot. It just doesn't seam to move fast at all or be very efficient... After reading on the Hoffman #74 I found out that it is a "hi-pressure" system vents. Would that slow down the velocity of the steam or I have another problem somewhere else.
Thanks

t. tekushan

Model 74

> Hi After reading few books recomended on this

> site, i understood the importance of venting. I

> decided to buy all new vents(12) and two main

> vents. The radiator air vents are Hoffman 1A

> adjustable. The mains air vents recomended by my

> supplier are Hoffman #74. I now have heat in my

> radiator but it took forever for the main to get

> hot. It just doesn't seam to move fast at all or

> be very efficient... After reading on the Hoffman

> #74 I found out that it is a "hi-pressure" system

> vents. Would that slow down the velocity of the

> steam or I have another problem somewhere

> else. Thanks

t. tekushan

Model 74

is for unit heaters running at high pressure (up to 35 psig).
It won't have enough flow at low pressure.

Attached is Hoffman literature. SEE PAGE 3 for single pipe main venting requirements. You'll want to look at the column labeled "end of main vent."

Steamhead (in transit)

Stephen, I'll repeat for you

what I posted for Josh. Measure the length and diameter of each steam main and we can tell you what's needed. You certainly did not need the #74 vents- they're way too small.