IPEX takes care of our customers

Chuck Waters

In regard to recent postings regarding a Kitec piping failure in the Pacific North-West, I must inform you that Ipex has been in full communication with all the parties involved. We have visited the site and have taken both product and water samples that are currently being analyzed.

To date, there have only been a few occurrences on this project, several in one unit. The root cause of the failures is not immediately apparent. It is a fairly complex situation that appears to result from the interaction of the incoming water quality, temperature of the water and the re-circulation of the hot water, with the various components in the system including the Kitec piping.

There are reports of incidents in similar installations with other products, in this region of the country, that do not involve Kitec piping. We have also been advised that several water heaters have failed to date on this particular job, perhaps prematurely.

The owner has been completely satisfied with our reaction; however, because there has not been an imminent problem and in the interest of not displacing his rental tenants, they have preferred to only have us look at or take samples from vacant units. This has slowed the pace of resolution that we at IPEX would like to see but our customer's best interests are most important. We have our engineering department doing some of the analysis and have engaged a number of industry experts to independently conduct their own analysis.

We have no indication at present that the Kitec piping suffered from any manufacturing defect, but nonetheless we are working diligently at considerable expense to find the true problem. Kitec piping is a reliable, high quality product that fully complies with all applicable industry standards.

Should any of our many customers have any further questions, please feel free to call me at 1-800-473-9808.

Chuck Waters
National Sales Manager

DanHolohan

Thanks for stopping by, Chuck.

The more we know the better off we all will be. Thanks.

Is the job that you've mentioned her the same as the one Dave wrote about in the post about failed Kitec pipe. He posted this photo. Is this what you're investigating?

Chuck Waters

No, they are totally unrelated and from the photos bear no similarity. I have not been able to trace any record of Dave's complaint in our files. I e-mailed him to get details but do not know who he is to proceed further.

We strive to answer 100% of all product defect inquiries. Frankly,with Kitec we don't get enough of them for that to be a chore. I would appreciate finding out how this one fell through the cracks.

Weezbo

The true problem seems to be the pipe has rather Large

cracks and ripps in it. has there been any such problems with other pex products in the area? and do you have a control of any sort in the experiment to determine the cause? is there any ongoing observation of a functioning unit with a means of recording the proceedure and results?

DanHolohan

Thanks, Chuck.

You wrote, "There are reports of incidents in similar installations with other products, in this region of the country, that do not involve Kitec piping. We have also been advised that several water heaters have failed to date on this particular job, perhaps prematurely."

What other products have had incidents, and which brand of water heaters have failed?

Thanks.

John Jr

Stepping up to the plate

Chuck I like the way you stepped up to the plate!

DanHolohan

Also,

is this the tubing from the job in the Northwest that you mentioned? It was posted in the other thread. Thanks.

steve gates

Those look like freezeups splits. I'm no expert but have fixed a few that looked like that.

DanHolohan

Not a freeze break, Steve

This is what Dave posted in the other thread:

"Same failures that we have seen. If you take a SHARP tubing cutter (knife type) and cut the pipe just at the end of the failure point you will see that the aluminum is overlapped at one point. This is apparently where it is bonded together somehow. All of the failures that we have seen are at or just beside this "seam". We never did get an answer from Kitec and just quit using the product. I have atached a picture from my files that show some of the various failures that we have seen. Some people that have looked at the samples have ventured the opinion that the pipes had frozen, Not so, if I could find the pictures showing the interior of the tubing you would see that the inside layer is imploded, not exploded as it will if the tubing freezes. What seems to have happened is that the "seam" in the aliminum core has failed and that lets the inner liner bulge until it ruptures and the water gets under it and pushes it back in and then blows the seam out and blows out the outer layer! All of the failures that we had seemed to have come from just two batches of tubing to the best of our knowledge. We are just waiting for the other boot to fall at this point and hoping that it never does!"

Chuck Waters

Dan

The photo that you posted appears that it may be the pipe in question.

I appreciate the effort that you and the wall contributors do in promoting our industry. I apologize but I am on the road so much that I have to pick up these strings off the archives. With NAHB next week and The World Of Concrete the week after, I am gone this morning for another 3 weeks.

As I said, Dave's post is an unrelated situation that we can not trace in our records. If he would give us a call and send us a couple of those samples we would be more than happy to comment on exactly what the problem is. Anybody that had a poor experience such as Dave would be unhappy. The situation needs to be addressed whether it be a product or application error.

Again, our toll free Denver number is 1-800-473-9808

DanHolohan

Thanks.

Can you fill us in on the other product incidents and water heater failures in this area that you mentioned?

DanHolohan

If Chuck's gone,

and unavailble for the next three weeks, maybe someone else from IPEX will pick this up. Chuck said that there have been other incidents with other products in the Pacific Northwest, as well as the failure of water heaters.

Could we please have something more specific on this. I think it's important to know, and to be able to connect with the other manufacturers who are having incidents to learn what they're finding.

Or if you're a contractor in the Northwest, perhaps you can shed some light on these other products that are failing.

Thanks.

mark_41

the water heaters are state

model pr6-50 nos 48000 btu. just to recap this project in question is 500 res units.

DanHolohan

What's going on with the heaters?

How are they failing?

mark_41

water heater

it is premature to say that a heater failed premature. we donot know how many have failed or the reason of failure. we do know that a failed heater has been awaiting kitec's investigation since july

DanHolohan

Thanks, Mark

Do you know of any other product "incident" in this area?

mark_41

there was another problem

with a multi million dollar settlement. something to do with a couple of condo projects. it seems the pex pipe, type unknown was exposed to sun lite causing uv damage, along with the use of black mallable fitting in open loop systems.

Brett O'Connor

Dan

As stated the only failures that we have incountered in this area have been connected to a specific model of State water heaters. I have come across a couple of other manufacturer PEX failures that are do to lack of reading of limitations or to put it in simple terms installer errors. I get a large amount of the calls in the Pacific Northwest when proplems occure. I always walk into a job with an open mind and look for the simple answer. Most of the time is something simple from experience. Rarely is it a PEX product that has been manufactured properly with know defects from the factory. Factories are not perfect they will at some time put out a line of pipe that will have a diffect.
This is a unique market in the respect that a multitude of multi family buildings are using radiant in many applications as a primary source of heat using a combined system using Rinnia, Polaris, Bradford white, or just plane water heaters sized to provide for both the domestic and radiant loads. The average loads of these multi family residences (7,000 - 15,000 BTUH). I would be more than willing to provide any information on what we are designing for these units to further the education of others. This is by no means that system of choice. I would like to see a boiler system closed with reset going into these units. We have some condo units that will be using the Buderus GB-142 with the Pump panels in combination with the ST Tanks. The Condo association is starting to see the light with allowing funds to put in a 30 plus year system. The open systems being put in are using non Ferus components along with Water Pottable certified equipment. Simply it is a glorified recirce system. I grew up in the Radiant Field and continue to learn.
This is a passion that we all share that drives us.

DanHolohan

Thanks, Brett.

for the information and the insight. Who do you work for?

Brett O'Connor

Dan

I now work for Mechanical Agents a Rep Firm. I left the Family Business 5 years ago with interest in teaching and helping in the understanding of radiant. We approach the Rep business in a different light. We became the contacts foriegen issues that contractors cannot seem to fix. I have learned more in 1 year with this company than owning a business. Were a contractor will see a handfull of issues I see 100's of various issues with all breaths of products and imagination. We are very hands on. From teaching basic to advanced courses, to holding the hands of new contractors in the field from design to the final install. I have always wanted to share my passion and now I have that road. I look at yourself, Robert Bean and John Siegenthaler as my ultimate goal. I had the pleasure of working with Robert 5 years ago in his development of panels. I always keep an open mind to change and product development. Thankyou for this forum and the knowledge that you share with all of us.

Unknown

What's the latest?

I'm experiencing some stray voltage that is eating away at the SS pins within the valves of MVA actuators but it is NOT an IPEX - Kitec problem.

PAP has some specific needs that are not covered in the manuals. Electrical anomalies . I'm using PEX and "stray voltage" is traveling through and causing problems. Anyone ever have this happen to them?



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Boiler Guy

Chuck

If you get this message please email me directly at tsp77@shaw.ca

mark_41

kitec failure in the NW

kitec has gone into another unit. the owner removed pipe,water heater and one convector and replaced. they took all parts to their factory, that was first part of feb. also more water samples were taken and stray voltage was assessed. todate all that has been said is that there is a question about water quality.

jim_54

kitec pipe fittings problems

Have jobs going on 6 years old using kitec pipe and compression fittings that are breaking down on me now.
Pipe is delaminating below the elbows and basically peeling apart and the outer layer becomes brittle.
I belive this pipe and fittings will not stand up to
constant temps of 180 degrees. Have been replacing these
fittings with crimp for repair. Also have experienced problems with pinholes in some cases on domestic hot water 160 degrees temps for wash down systems requiring sanitizing. Have many baseboard hot water installations in place and I'am concerned why this is starting to happen after 5 to 6 years.I have heard everything from faulty o rings to over heating of components. Why ?? ANY RESPONSES WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED TO THIS.

DanHolohan

Jim,

have you contacted the folks at IPEX? Where are you located?

Unknown

PAP

Jim,

Have you been in contact with Kitec about your specific problem yet? We'd like to see some pictures of the failures you are talking about.

I highly doubt that you have any "pinholes" on any of Kitec's PAP. This would be very interesting to see. Water chemistry may be at issue here. Have you had the fill water tested for Ph & chloride levels Etc.?

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DanHolohan

I question this guy, Jim.

He's not answering, and he left a bogus e-mail address. Let's see if he returns.

Jed_2

Dan

I have been involved with Kitec pipe for about 10 years now. Have not had ONE claim or complaint about this pipe. Many uses are for high temp baseboard rough-in applications, and many slab applications; including SIM. I have one Customer who pretty much uses it exclusively for slab installations. He just slings a 300 footer over his shoulder and "walks the walk". Many installers have problems with Kitec/Joist Bay uses. It can be done very easily with Kitec from what I've seen, but conditions have to right.

I just don't understand these "occurances" as reported here. Must be something wrong with the install on these "reports", as I have had NO "reports".

Am looking for the final conclusion on the "Northwest" situation, though.

From my experience with Contractors whom I have recommended Kitec for various system applications, not all, but most thank me for the recomendation.

Regards, Jed

DanHolohan

These are the first problems I've heard of, Jed.

And that's why I'm interested. I remember the Heatway days with Entran I and II. I hope the problems with Pex-Al-Pex are limited. I hope they can be explained. I hope they wind up being due to bad installations. And most of all, I hope the manufacturer comes here to tell their story once they know what it is.

Jed_2

Right

And Entran was shown to be manufacturer related. Kitec has CL-D/CL-R Protocol 171 approval for goodness sakes. It just doesn't get any better than that.

Jed

DanHolohan

You betcha,

and I look forward to hearing their explanation about what happened to the tubing in the photographs once they have it.

Boiler Guy

Dan

Can you give me any information or a resource I can access on the Entran problems you refered to in your previous message. I service a small system installed in a front entrance that so far has experienced no difficulties.

DanHolohan

Sure:

http://www.entranhose.com/aboutEntran.asp

http://www.entranhose.com/haveEntran.asp

http://www.entraniisettlement.com/usabout-eng.shtml

http://www.goodyear.com/corporate/heatway/

http://www.realestatejournal.com/homeimprove/homeimprove/19981016-daspin.html

Boiler Guy

Thanks Dan

steve gates

I talked to one lf there reps at RAdfest. he said 7 labs 7 results on the washington stuff. I gave him a 3/4 coupling I'd cut out because of split at the ring. Waiting to see? He thinks someone crimped it to tight? Who ever did that job also didn't support it well,12 ft and no hanger.

mark_41

kitec failure

thanks for the support
we like you await kicec's response
it has been almost a year now

DanHolohan

Long time to wait for an answer.

Hopefully, you'll hear something soon. Please let us know. Thanks.

mark_41

steve

can you expand on the statement 7 labs 7 results? and who is radfest?

mark_41

gary

my delayed response is that having seen electrolysis in copper pipe, that is how the failed kitec looks and was our first reaction.