warmboard vs gypcrete?

S Davis

Gypcrete has my vote, easier to run tubing you don't have to dive tube into joists to get to the various zones so you avoid expansion noise problems, it also has a little more mass to it wich in my opinion makes the system heat more evenly, it will drop temp slower in the event of a power outage.IMHO

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

PG

Warmboard VS gypcrete?

What do you all think is the best performer..........warmboard or a gypcrete pour? Which would you choose for your house?

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PG

Interesting, but do you know the response time between the two .

on startup? Also not sure what you mean about the noise?

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S Davis

Time

I don't exactly but Gyp will be longer, It will depend on what you want from the system, the way we design we use zoning to have different temps so you set the baths higher the bedrooms lower and just leave it at where you are most comfortable, if you want to use setback thermostats and have a faster responce warmboard will probably work better,
as for the noise issue pex expands at a rate of 1" per 100 feet per ten degrees of temp rise so you can have noise issues running it in joist bays.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Weezbo

i have a 5/8 ths over pour with 5/16th's'\" and 3/8ths..

it is the fastest ramping slab i have encountered...i cannot tell you at this momment about the warm board,as i have not installed ANY of it. the wirsbo quick track took two years to make it here, the rhauh panel took along time also,so lets just say due to unavailability my schedule has not allowed me the pleasure. my understanding is that the thin panel ramps and cools some what quicker than gypcrete at the same temp and flow rates.to date i havent tried another product, perhaps you have some information on it. it is somewhat like Becoteck, it basically looks like egg cartons turned upside down, it allows the placement of tubing inside the "valleys" or the material,it cuts down on the weight and amount of gypcrete and the curing rate,it also uses less water and has basically formed a vapor barrier over the subfloor....perhaps you can tell me where it can be purchased ...

PG

The weight is in the back of my mind............

my addition is on a crawl. The gyp would add around 10,000 lbs this is a concern of mine. I seen plenty of additions do some "shifting" or "sagging". Maybe I just worry to much.

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PG

The weight is in the back of my mind............

my addition is on a crawl. The gyp would add around 10,000 lbs this is a concern of mine. I seen plenty of additions do some "shifting" or "sagging". Maybe I just worry to much.

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rod robbins

I used gyp in my home and the floors are nice and solid under foot.The heat is very smooth.I have people thinking of using the gyp for there floors even without the radiant.
Rod

Jeffrey Campbell

Gyp VS Warmboard

These are two very different systems with the end results being very close. First of all do you want response time gyp does lag in this. Warmboard heats up very fast. Heat Transfer-Aluminum transfers heat better than concrete. Expense if enginnered corectly the warmboard can the same price as gypsum. Efficiency-They both opperate at very low supply temps.-warmboard 100-120 and gyp 110-130(8" centers).
They are both perfect for condesning boilers to run at 95%. Another subject is wood floors. All of our flooring contractors want another sheet of plywood installed over the gyp and sleepers. Sleepers are a pain for everyone and another sheet of ply drop the system performance. Warmboard you nail directly to the the surface. I have also found you can use set during day or night with the warmboard which some customers desirer. Fianlly I live in an area were there are many second homes. People are complaining about the system lag time for heat up from a cool start (55 degrees). They are here a week and its takes 2 days to heat the house. Warmboard is hours. Cheers Jeffrey Campbell-RPA Certified Desinger/Installer

PG

Does warmboard lock you in on spacing

> These are two very different systems with the end

> results being very close. First of all do you

> want response time gyp does lag in this.

> Warmboard heats up very fast. Heat

> Transfer-Aluminum transfers heat better than

> concrete. Expense if enginnered corectly the

> warmboard can the same price as gypsum.

> Efficiency-They both opperate at very low supply

> temps.-warmboard 100-120 and gyp 110-130(8"

> centers). They are both perfect for condesning

> boilers to run at 95%. Another subject is wood

> floors. All of our flooring contractors want

> another sheet of plywood installed over the gyp

> and sleepers. Sleepers are a pain for everyone

> and another sheet of ply drop the system

> performance. Warmboard you nail directly to the

> the surface. I have also found you can use set

> during day or night with the warmboard which some

> customers desirer. Fianlly I live in an area were

> there are many second homes. People are

> complaining about the system lag time for heat up

> from a cool start (55 degrees). They are here a

> week and its takes 2 days to heat the house.

> Warmboard is hours. Cheers Jeffrey Campbell-RPA

> Certified Desinger/Installer





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PG

What about Wirsbo quick trac?

Is the wirsbo the same as warmboard? Do they both lock you in as far as spacing goes? Is this a problem as far as customizing the heat. What if you want to put the tubes closer near doorwalls? Also if the sleepers are done 100% right why can't a good floor guy work with them? Thanks

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Unknown

use PAP with warmboard and there is no expansion issue. also the aluminum of warmboard is more even heating than an EQUAL on center in gypcrete; however you can easily tighten on centers in gypcrete to account for floor surface variations.

I think all around gypcrete is more flexible in terms of isolating rooms on loops, varying tubing spacing, and you can ultimately get lower water temps with it if you want.

However warmboard has better responsiveness and less flywheel, and if planned for initially can be easier all around as there are less contractors to co-ordinate.

definite pluses and minuses on both sides, IMHO.

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Unknown

quik trak is NOT the same as warmboard. if you are looking for a comparable over the floor prefab panel, you're looking for Raupanel. Price is similar to quiktrak but it's much more powerful.

whether "customizing" heat is a problem or not depends on your floorplan and heat loads; a heat load calc can answer that for you.

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Unknown

Jeffery, we do a lot of vacation homes too, with gypcrete and with other methods as well. For high mass radiant in such homes we are making phone switches standard so they can turn the house up the day before they go on vacation and it's warm when they get there.

Also, you can beat warmboard's water temps with gypcrete if you are compressing tubing on centers.

Setback and simplified installation though are good points in warmboard's favor.

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Dunwell

Phone Switches

NRT.Rob,
Can you go into a little more detail about phone switches? I am currently building, have a gypcrete pour, and will probably need this option. Is it difficult? My plumber is hooking up the Munchkin right now. What does he need to do to add this feature?
Thanks,
Dunn

Unknown

generally the alarm company handles it and we provide detail for enabling our tekmars with it. I believe it's often some sort of freeze alarm system. googling for it would help you; since we dont' directly handle those electronics my info is limited, but on vacation homes there is almost always an alarm contractor involved.

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jp_2

gyp @ 130F seems a bit high,

at zero degrees outside, my gypcrete is running with a supply around 90F, 74F floor and 66F room temps. comfortable on bare feet. 3/8's tubing, 6"o.c., 1" thick.
I can recover from 55F in about 4-5hrs, thats with a weak circulator.
I agree gypcrete and hardwood are not a good match. sleepers don't really help because of random wood lenghts and the problem of gypcrete shrinkage below sleepers leaving air gaps between wood & gyp.

jp_2

phone controller

http://www.energyautomationinc.com/ct240-01.shtml

Troy_3

Gypsum,sleepershardwood

I prefer gypsum concrete. It keeps the system quiet and heats the most uniform. Noise with all dry systems is an issue that takes careful installation precautions. If you haven't been bit yet, you will. Mark my words. People paying top buck for a premium system don't want to hear it. I've never had a noise complaint from a gyp job. It actually quiets the whole structure. Pex and aluminum transfers heat great. pex rubbing wood or expanding within a plate creates sleep deprivation that can cost a contractor thousands and your reputation. Don't misunderstand- I use plates under floors often, Raupanel and Kwiktrak on top of floors often. They all work well when designed and installed correctly. If I have my choice I always choose gypsum concrete as my best first option. And in my case I charge less for the best method.

PG

Ok so customizing was a poor choice.........

of words. But I am a/the heating contractor. What about those large doorwalls I may want to add some narrower spacing........? Yes I did the heatload along with my rep. I'm leaning towards the gyp. but not crazy about all the weight. We do tons of steam systems. We servive lots of older neighborhoods, so not a big call for infloor. So this is not my strong suit......but coming up to speed fast. Bottom line......my house (addition actually, 770 sq ft. with scorched air in old part). I want the best.....cost, or job coordinating not an issue. And I think I can find a top notch hardwood guy to work with sleepers (without the top board). Just read some good stuff about warmboard, and the like, and want to look at all my options. Thanks

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PG

Gypcrete shrinks?

First I heard of this. How much does it shrink?

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Troy_3

Shrink?

How much does what shrink? Gypsum concrete doesn't shrink. Portland concrete does shrink as it gives up it's water and sets.

PG

JP seems to think so.up a couple of threads.....



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Mark Eatherton1

Those \"gaps\"..

are intentionally put there by the gypcrete installers. They use a rubber squeegee that they run across the tops of the sleepers so that the tops of the sleepers are REAL obvious.

Otherwise, the hardwood floor installers can't see the sleepers, and who knows WHERE they might put thier nails...;-(

I've never seen a case of actual shrinkage in all my 30 years of doing it. THe stuff remains elastic forever.

ME

jp_2

shrinkage?

I used a 2x4 as a screed. so I assumed it does shrink a bit after finding some low areas once it hardened. I paided pretty close attention as I screeded the floor.
but if the floors are screeded as mark points out, then won't you lose conductive contact? seems it would be benefical to thinset the floor down or something to maintain contact?
I think Hot rod made some comments last spring on this subject(not the thinset part).

ps yes I assumed with all the water in it, it did shrink a bit, however slight. so, Ok I stand corrected.

PG

I guess I'm a dummy but what do the words screed and screeded

mean? Are they in Websters?

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jp_2

if you have sleepers on the floor, using say a 2x4 to level the material even with the sleepers, dragging the 2x4 over the sleepers to make things even. screed may not be the exact proper usage, I'm not a concrete guy.

hr

I've seen gyp installers

in a hurry try to pour a 1-1/2" slab in one lift and it does dry about 1/8- 1/4" lower than the sleepers.

I believe the correct way is to pour two lifts to minimize the shrinkage.

Even so, if the flooring does not contact the gyp and there is any air space you lose some conduction transfer. Seems, however, the mass and thermal storage of the product over comes the small gaps that may present.

The key is a "qualified" installer that gets the mix and installation right!

My biggest complaint was the wet gyp causing the 2X2 or 2X4 furring strips to absorb water, expand, then dry and shrink when the heat was turned on. I suspect this is what can cause hardwood over gyp to develop squeaks as the system dries out?

I'd much rather see a floating, engineered wood product over gyp. Takes the hassle of furring strips and loop ends crossing the strips, out of the picture also

hot rod

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PG

Not familiar with the engineered floor?

I have 80 yr old red oak in existing part of house. I would love to match it as close as possible. Can I do this with engineered wood flooring? I do like the idea of no sleepers. Do I need a membrane of some sort no mater what I go with?

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Weezbo

i second the vote for floating floors........

if that isnt some shrinkage then id call it a heck of a case of evaporation.:)

Jeffrey Campbell

solar gain

NRT Rob
What what do you think about over heating due to solar gain. I live in the mountains of colorado where we get alot of sun. Just the other day I observed outisde temperature 12 degrees and snowing. Inside temperature 72 and tstat was set at 68. The sun was barely shining as it snowed. With gyp and concrete you store alot of heat which is being released all the time. I have noticed and received input from customers on over heating. I know outdoor reset helps reduce the overheating and so would blinds, but you can't hide the million dollar views. Anyways, I think the low mass warmboard system can help because of the quick repsonse. The house heats up quickly but can also cool quickly also.I think the warm board systems can be more precise The warm board is like a sports car-quick reponse and precison handling. Gyp is the Cadillac ride-smooth. What do you guys think. Jeffrey Campbell

jerry scharf_2

thermal mass

Jeff,

I would hardly call a warmboard heated room a sports car. Maybe it's an 18' flat bed vs. a full tandem trailer. You still have much more mass than with panel radiators. IMO panel rads combined with TRVs do the best job for the problem you bring up. I'd give them a solid minivan rating on the above scale. I do like warmboard for that exact reason, the response to shutting down the flow is much better than gypcrete. That and the difference in dead weight are the inportant things for me.

What you really need is something that measures solar gain available and uses that and the house geometry to start shutting down the radiant before the gain occurs. I know of nothing like that on the market. Even if it existed, the programming would be a bear. I'm a control hacker, so I'm going to experiment with these types of controls. If it works out well, maybe some day it can find it's way into products.

If you underdesign the radiant to match the load with solar gain, then pick up the rest with panel rads/TRVs, then you have the best of both worlds, but with significant increase in complexity.

jerry

Weezbo

let me share another of my ideas...........

i like radiant . i also like sunlight. so,i like to put something that i call a summer zone throughout the home.this allows the heat to be dialed out basically and roll along forthe spring summer and fall. this summer i am into puting in a system that will redistribute warm water away from the sun room re mix it thru the primary and redistribute itinto other rooms and shift the btus around a little bit more ....to continue a momment,i am of the mind to place some coils into the ground and shed a little heat that direction also,and i am kinda considering reversing the snow melt heat aquired from the drive way and redirecting it under ground as well.it is going to be fun i dont really want to go extra heating and cooling coils or air conditioning the hrv is fine the way it is....i like to do some work every year that is a challange, i have thought about this a long time...just never did it i tried to talk tekmar into making some controls..i am not bothering with them if we wait on someone else to do something it may never get done ..i belive it is doable with some thinking and tinkering...i am probably wrong as usual,however Gods given me this chance to do more rather than less and thats where my thoughts are on this. Alaska has the greatest extremes and central land masses on the planet exhibit the greatest range of extremes within them,so,i have an excellent place to grow my off beat brand of the idea of comfort.did i mention Buderas panels? think about it...with the use of computers in the equasion ...maybe these entire system can have a chance to work from a known state to a "predicted"state...or if you like from a different matamatical formula intergrating solar azmuiths ,and a host of other minor technicalities...some one will take the iniative one day to write the program and we will add the variables as they are further researched and up graded into the programme then coupled with information experienced and absorbed thru a variety of sources, our homes will balance themselves to the best of their constructed ability There is a fine example of mechanical systems intergration in a building in Germany called the Gotz building...maybe some one has some information on it...the outside of the building uses solar heat gain pulls it to the other(cold side) of the building and washes the walls with the btus picked up from the opposite side.. it would be great to go there walk around in the building a few days ,spend some time in the trenches,kick the tyres,on the air handeling radiant heating radiant "cooling" on an on...scaning thier blue print to memory would be good*~/:) that way you could forget more than most people will ever know and one more idea,why not put your advertizement Into your work...?instead of maximizing the potential cutomer base with a colour advert in some phone book or daily rag or trademagazine,put the extra work into the job your doing,that way you make One person happy .:)it might even become contagious..who knows?...

Unknown

In many cases, indoor feedback such as is available through some Tekmar controls can address solar gain issues. Maybe if you have situation where the home is either very low heatloss with substantial solar gain, or if you get very rapid solar gain the indoor feedback might not do enough with gyp; it will ALWAYS be enough with warmboard though. Indoor feedback is quite powerful stuff.

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Kal Row

what you need is my hydronic cossbar switch...

where any number of heat sources can be hooked and flow modulated to any number of heat loads

example: asphalt under the driveway is a load with snow on top of it - but with sun on top of it, it becomes a heat source. If you have a liquid chilling heat pump, to pump 40f water to fin-coil convectors - then cool pool water can be used to for the condenser - and the 60f return water from the fin coils convectors, can now be run into the ceiling for supplemental radiant cooling – in the already dehumidified house

that’s my fantasy dream house, with geothmal liquid heater/chiller heat pumps, solar, pool, geothermal ground loops, evaporative tower, and two insulated 10,000 gal underground tanks, one heat storage and one cold storage, you now have a system that mostly only runs pumps – not heaters, compressors and suck ilk! – but the cost of antifreeze for such a system kills the fantasy

jerry scharf_2

I'm not sure about that

Kal,

Unless everything is driven with heat pumps to push heat around, I'm not sure it would work. More often than not, you want concentrated heat, enough to overcome heat exchange losses and still provide use toward specific goals. Dale wrote something a couple months ago that I though explained this well.

You want to heat your hat water to 140, but the water coming off the snowmelt is 90 and you lose some temp to the heat exchanger. So the gross BTUs available look good, but it would be marginal even as a preheat.

They don't work everywhere, but evac tube solar collectors are great in that they do have excellent ability to concentrate the heat even in lower output situations.

jerry

Jeffrey Campbell

Dream System

Yes, indoor feedback is the answer. The post earlier was talking about ageothermal system. My dream system is a solar aided geothermal system. The problem with large solar sytems is what to do with all that heat in the summer. Why not preheat your geo ground loop by circulating solar gain-if you can absorb heat form the ground so why can't you store it also. Raise the ground loop to say 75+ degrees and your COP's with be VERY HIGH!. Then in the winter use the solar as first stage and geo and second stage. An ultra efficient system wouldn't you say. Jeffrey Campbell