Most Efficient Comfortable System?

Jammer_2

Just bought a house and I am replacing the heating and cooling system. It's a 2 story and about 2000 sq. ft. My question is what is the most efficient and comfortable type of heating system to install? I have electric, oil, and L.P. gas available. No natural gas. Looking for advice. Thanks!

Rich Kontny_2

My advice

I'm sue there will be some diagreement from others but generally speaking, without naming a specific brand this is my advice. If there is no shortage of money, you can get variable speed, plus zoned systems. Usually there is a budget and my choice would be a gas furnace, 2 stage if you can afford it ( Not that much more ).
Bob Shafers heating & Cooling , Michigan

Constantin

Several factors to consider

... most radiant hydronic systems are hard to beat efficiency-wise. These emitters have so much surface area that they can heat most rooms with very-low temperature water, offering an even heat, low operational costs, etc.

However, don't just install a radiant floor system if you intend on having big carpets or huge north-facing glass walls. Chances are, you'll need to supplement the radiant floor heat with a radiator or two on the coldest of days.

For me, comfort-wise, one step down from radiant hydronic emitters are radiators and panel units. These too can offer very high effiency in terms of transferring heat from the water to the room. In fact, some people prefer them to radiant floor heat. It's a matter of taste.

Next comes baseboard, which can be as efficient as panel rads, et. al if it's installed so as to cover design-day loads at 140°F. A high-efficiency condensing furnace may also find it's place in this category, if you can keep duct leakage under control and rebalance the system to run well during the winter.

So, comfortwise, my vote is with radiant hydronic heat. If you want to heat and cool with water, consider the Karo system, which may be the most easily-retrofit above-surface radiant system one can buy. If you install it in the ceiling, you can even use it to cool your house.

For cooling applications, you'll still need a small duct system to move air and remove latent heat. Plus, you'll be a guinea pig for a technology that has been proven in Europe but which has not found wide adoption in the US - yet.

Jeff Lawrence_24

efficient?

> Just bought a house and I am replacing the

> heating and cooling system. It's a 2 story and

> about 2000 sq. ft. My question is what is the

> most efficient and comfortable type of heating

> system to install? I have electric, oil, and

> L.P. gas available. No natural gas. Looking for

> advice. Thanks!





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jerry scharf_2

If you want the best

Here is my tupence.

IMO there is no perfect system out there. Each has it's benefits and warts. Sometimes optimum comfort and efficiency can point in slightly different directions. Any system installed correctly will most likely outperform a badly installed system. Double that for comfort.

The most efficient system is the one that lives in a house that uses almost no heat. Worry about this first, and it will make anything work better. Another advantage to going after this first is that then you will know much more clearly what you need is terms of heat per room.

Clearly, a condensing modulating boiler is the most efficient way to go. In general they run on gas or LP. There are a fair number of these out there, covering a fairly wide range of cost, complexity and efficiency. Many people here have systems they are partial to and the reasons for that.

With a condensing boiler, return water temperature is the key to efficiency. Radiant heat with highly efficient heat transfer from the water to the surface allows the lowest water temperatures, and the highest efficiency. They also have the highest mass and thus are the slowest to react to changes in the rooms. Also, with the right construction (thermal isolation...) the walls and ceilings are also fine candidates for radiant heating.

IMO, for comfort nothing can beat a constant circulation proportional flow setup. This is easy to create with panel radiators and TRVs. Danfoss also has the same type of valves for radiant, but they are very rare in the US. With panel rads, the water temp needs to be a good bit higher than with the best radiant floors, so efficiency can drop.

Baseboard takes the highest heat and will give you the lowest comfort of the three systems.

For controls, outdoor reset is a must for a highest efficiency from a condensing boiler. I talked about TRVs, which make each emitter it's own zone. Beyond that, think about areas that need less heat with zoning. Make sure you factor in solar gain, it's easy to have a very uncomfortable set of rooms if the same zone controls rooms facing east and west and larger windows.

Also, don't forget to think about the air quality, things like energy recovery ventilators and a good strategy for filtering the air.

Finally, though I know you're not asking about cooling, I really think the Freus condensers coupled with a TXV expansion coil are the best things out there. There's water in the system, so you have to do a winterizing. Other than that, it's the most efficienct system out there and does about the best job removing moisture from the air.

jerry

Ted_9

Rich, I also install forced warm air, but if money is not a problem and the customer wants comfort, than its hydronic(wet) heat that is superior. Lets just be honest here.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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GMcD

Best system

The best approach is prioritize where the money goes. It doesn't matter what kind of heating system goes in since all of the heat loss is through the building envelope. So, first thing to do is upgrade glass/windows, add insulation if required, and MINIMIZE the heat losses first. Then you can install the smallest heating system you need. Obviously a hydronic system (hot water) is the most energy efficient, but with a hydronic heating system you'll still need ventilation, and using a small heat recovery ventilator is the right choice.

Unknown

> ... most radiant hydronic systems are hard to

> beat efficiency-wise. These emitters have so much

> surface area that they can heat most rooms with

> very-low temperature water, offering an even

> heat, low operational costs, etc.

>

> However,

> don't just install a radiant floor system if you

> intend on having big carpets or huge north-facing

> glass walls. Chances are, you'll need to

> supplement the radiant floor heat with a radiator

> or two on the coldest of days.

>

> For me,

> comfort-wise, one step down from radiant hydronic

> emitters are radiators and panel units. These too

> can offer very high effiency in terms of

> transferring heat from the water to the room. In

> fact, some people prefer them to radiant floor

> heat. It's a matter of taste.

>

> Next comes

> baseboard, which can be as efficient as panel

> rads, et. al if it's installed so as to cover

> design-day loads at 140°F. A high-efficiency

> condensing furnace may also find it's place in

> this category, if you can keep duct leakage under

> control and rebalance the system to run well

> during the winter.

>

> So, comfortwise, my vote is

> with radiant hydronic heat. If you want to heat

> and cool with water, consider the _a

> href="http://www.naturalcooling.com"_Karo

> system_/a_, which may be the most easily-retrofit

> above-surface radiant system one can buy. If you

> install it in the ceiling, you can even use it to

> cool your house.

>

> For cooling applications,

> you'll still need a small duct system to move air

> and remove latent heat. Plus, you'll be a guinea

> pig for a technology that has been proven in

> Europe but which has not found wide adoption in

> the US - yet.



you skipped radiant ceiling, which I would place between radiant floor and radiators in your list

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Unknown

you skipped radiant ceiling, which I would place between radiant floor and radiators in your list

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Dan_15

the best

Hydronic heating is efficient and comfortable. Buderus three-pass cast iron push nipple design is superior design and competitive pricing with American boilers.

Constantin

I like the Karo system a lot...

... but there is being a pioneer and then there is being a guinea pig. While radiant ceiling heating and cooling is well accepted in the EU and works great, there are not that many installers in the US who are familiar with capillary-style heating/cooling systems.

The Karo system will probably become the system of choice for historic gut jobs since it allows the retrofit of heating and cooling into houses that have no room for infrastructure (chases and all that jazz). While probably most effective in climates that are not terribly humid, the 6" eqv. HRV air supply system that any ethical installer would spec for a tightly insulated home could do double-duty and remove latent heat as well.

Combined with a chilled-water AC, the overall system cost is unlikely to be much higher than what RFH and HV system combo would cost. In fact, it could be lower.

Larry_10

i am with you there dan i love my buderus :-)next year i will change out my r2109 and put in the 2107 out door reset