Another unfortunate Web Job

Constantin

If she's a good customer, the credit card company may go to bat for her. Then, she'll be out of some shipment costs but a whole lot wiser.

Egad! The road to hell really is paved with good intentions. What a shame!

Jed_2

Went to a Job site today

to evaluate the "System" purchased by a loving Wife for her husband for Christmas. She sent Plans(changed a few times since) to the "Marketer". She ordered the material. A 75 gal. Bock O/F water heater, 6000' of Mr. Pex 1/2" tubing, a brass 12 drop header with actuators(nice manifold), and a "Fluff Binder" with all sorts of system design and installation material. But, NO HEAT LOSS, or system design, just general guide lines and "limits", i.e., no loop lengths over 500'. Well, the 12 drop manifold and 6000' of tubing says 500' loops to me.

Problem is, the house addition/remodel was a little more complicated than a Bock water heater( one temp, no controls or MV's supplied) could possibly solve. They send a 0011, though, with the explanation that this pump was sized for the system, and work nicely.

We have 4 stories, and panels include floors with granite, tile, carpet, and wood( maybe hickory or laminate). HUH?

They didn't have an updated set of plans, so the Contractor and I measured the place top to bottom.

I met the nice lady, but didn't have much conversation, other than to go through the house and get some details.

The bleeding's got to stop!

Jed

Materials came from Washington state.

Weezbo

it is best to explain that you have some other materials that

may be required and that some of the materials and information wasnt "in the box" *~/:) then the lady wont feel like "aint I the dummie" and as long as you dont make the lengths 2000 ft long with a bunch of plugs in the other holes ....Who knows it may be the small miriacal Gods asking of you. maybe you could explain the return of the O/F as an incompatibility of designe features and certain spacial limitations :)you know sorta sound like it aint got nothing to do with her ,....personally.

Dave Yates (PAH)

The bleeding won't stop until

the States step in and hold the sellers responsible for design and code compliance issues. Don't hold your breath.

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S Davis

Washington State

Do you know what company it came from? If you don't want to post the name could you e-mail it to me.

Thanks

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

S Davis

Washington State

Sorry finger had a spasm.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Steve Ebels_2

Dave

The codes here, as they are currently written, do nothing but address safety and certain areas of product suitability. They don't say a blasted thing about what it takes and/or what methods of installation are required to build a decently performing system. Methods are not illustrated or described anywhere. Code is pretty much worthless as far as system performance goes.

Unless there are major changes in what the codes are intended to affect, there is no hope in that direction. I think it is up to each of us to do what we can to educate people. No-one is going to do it for us.

Jed_2

Weezbo

I was called by a Local Contractor, who was asked to provide assistance for the install. Red flags went up for him, too. 6 bathrooms in the place, with one large whirlpool. Bock will be used for DHW alone, the house sized for boiler and proper system design. Tubing is o.k., so they'll use it, and the manifold could work , for the 1st Floor. Boiler will be sized to include the DHW, for future use. They will also have a small SIM for the short, sloped driveway. The 0011, I'll see what's needed for the SIM, or maybe somewhere in the system.

Jed

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Rather Similar...

...to the "robot", "laser" and other plans/kits that I ordered from comic books as a kid. Some worked, marginally, but NONE to the level of expectation. In a stange way, those things marketed to kids are good--they teach you to be skeptical and conduct research.

In a free society there will never be a shortage of P. T. Barnums, but the alternative of stifling the ability of individuals to apply their knowledge and learn is ever worse.

George_10

Interstate fraud

Seems to me this is what these companies are doing. Since it is well known that a heat loss calc is needed to properly design a system, it would be likely that the FTC could be involved. They are supposedly in the business of cracking down on fruad that crosses state lines. They are specifically charged with protecting the unsuspecting public.

Years ago I worked for a big company that came under their guns. It wasn't pleasant for the company.

Unknown

that would be sweet. as a fellow who does plenty of work via the internet, these con artists really drive me nuts. there is room for different approaches to system design, but there is different and then there is negligent. I see too much of the latter.

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Hey Rob!

Interesting thread given our e-mail conversation last evening.

As we discussed, many of the internet hucksters include disclaimers galore on their designs or systems in order to assign total responsibility for code compliance and operation/function onto the homeowner's shoulders. Pretty cool way to do business, eh? No worries and no responsibilities! Just take the cash and run.

Some areas of the country have codes requiring HX's with a dividing chamber that will vent any leakage to atmosphere. Although Rob takes this into consideration for his designs, some of the other internet companies ignore the code and sell equipment with the disclaimer that it's the HO's responsibility to be code compliant. As you would expect, most Homeowners either don't check, won't check or really don't want to know and simply concentrate on costs issues. The back door loophole being utilized grants an unfair advantage over legit sales that would have been code compliant. It's precisely those types of sales that should be punishable and, I think, the fines should be steep enough to be painfull lessons.

As for the lack of a recognized Manual J, or other certified heat loss/gain program being submitted, that too should be a violation of law, especially if a local contractor would be required to submit one in order to obtain a permit.

The real travesty is that those jobs where permits are pulled are the only installs coming under scrutiny. So long as there remains a lack of interest in pursuit of those working outside the boundaries, nothing will ever change and those who have no scruples will continue to prey upon consumers.

I'm not holding my breath.



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