HYdrogen Fueled Boiler

Paul Rohrs

Read this link and tell me if you don't think a hydrogen fueled boiler would not be obtainable?

http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/rotary.html

Makes me want to tinker in the garage a little bit more.

Regards,

PR

jerry scharf_2

be really careful

natural gas and propane are childs play. Hydrogen will find all leaks, and has a very wide range of explosive air mixtures. Not something I want in my house any time soon.

jerry

oil-2-4-6-gas

-JF that was what 90% of the population thought about electricity in the begining ---we need alternative fuels this when perfected --seems to have some posibility--actually in Greenland they have hydrogen fuel cell cars and on-site production of hydrogen fuel at the
'fueling stations -------

Weezbo

Well, oK. Buh you Sure you want to hand your money to

a guy named Wolf? i dont wish to state the obvious here.....

Constantin

Greenland is a special place...

... with gobs and gobs of goethermal heat that can be used to pre-heat the water before splitting it. However, there aren't that many homeowners in the US who can count geothermal heat due to an underground lava bed as one of the features of their plot.

I disagree strongly with your notion that Hydrogen can be made as safe as electricity. Ain't going to happen: the molecules are too small, the gas too flammable, and the flames too invisible. For example, NASA has a whole stack of brooms in their research labs to help detect the fires because you're not going to do it visually (other than noting that your hand has just turned into steak).

Plus, where is the gas going to come from? At the end of the day, even if virtually unlimited supplies of energy can be tapped by switching to fusion reactors (if they can be made to work) why wouldn't you store the energy in battery or somesuch rather something as dangerous as hydrogen?

As far as I am concerned, Hydrogen is a fuel of last resort. There are plenty of biofuels and other renewables out there (never mind conservation) that will have a far more cost effective impact. Hydrogen is the canard that is being passed around as a means to pretend that the administration is doing something, when in fact it's nothing more than a thinly-disguised corporate thank-you gift.

Mark Eatherton1

I saw one in Germany about 7 years ago...

at ISH. They had a hydrogen seperator/compressore/storage unit that ran on electricity (solar PV) and water. Hydrogen was stored in a ball type cylinder and release to he burner on an atmospheric boiler. Looked very novel.

Vailant boiler company if mamories serve me collectly.

But who knows.. If we can put a man on the moon,,,

ME

hr

Some good reading on Hydrogen form Popular Science

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469,00.html

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Tony Conner

Actually...

...it's Iceland. Small, relatively concentrated population on a volcanic island, with HUGE geo-thermal action.

Currently, it takes more energy to separate the hydrogen than you get back out of it. Wild stuff to handle, as well. The molecules are so small that they can permeate steel pipe, and can spontaneously combust. Petrochem guys look for hydrogen piping leaks/fires in the dark, because you can't see the flame in daylight. Combine this with a combustion range that covers about 75% when mixed with air and 60,000 BTU/ cubic foot, and it makes natural gas look like tap water.

I know how many people handle and store small amounts of gasoline for their lawnmowers, etc. It's not much short of terrifying. I can only imagine these guys with hydrogen.

Fred Harwood

Hydrogen

Much hype about this "fuel," which must first be extracted from something else, such as natural gas (CH4) or water (H20) by consuming energy from another source, such as coal or uranium, which can make electricity for direct heating anyway, without the losses necessary to free, store, transport, distribute, and restore the hydrogen. Perhaps a thousand base-load nucs would be much more sensible, and safer, really. And so-called spent fuel rods are -not- spent. About 90 percent of the energy remains in a "spent" rod, and should be recoved with recycling. Hydrogen also has other uses that will keep its price relatively high, especially if we build the nucs, like France has and China is and others will.

DaveGateway

Still too high tech

There was a talk of building bio diesel producing refineries from the wastes of poultry and meat processing plants. Cars that ran on used fry oil from fast food joints. That technology sounded like it was available a few years ago. With the price of #2 hitting $2/gal you'd think this stuff would be comming on-line by now. 20% Bio diesel #2 is still only available in limited areas and it's only around 5 cents more then reg #2. (checkout www.clickableoil.com) This the technology we should be investing heavily in.

Alan Bright

Biofuels?

> There was a talk of building bio diesel producing

> refineries from the wastes of poultry and meat

> processing plants. Cars that ran on used fry oil

> from fast food joints. That technology sounded

> like it was available a few years ago. With the

> price of #2 hitting $2/gal you'd think this stuff

> would be comming on-line by now. 20% Bio diesel

> #2 is still only available in limited areas and

> it's only around 5 cents more then reg #2.

> (checkout www.clickableoil.com) This the

> technology we should be investing heavily in.

Alan Bright

Biofuels?

Our new 2nd term Secretary of Agriculture is previoulsy
govenor of Nebraska. He is VERY bio / agriculture fuels
enthusiastic. Agrifuels makes a little too much sense for America and its vast heartland I think. I wonder how many depthcharges are set by the existing petrochemical big shots. I would run corn oil in a boiler if my SOLAR wasn't keeping up with 317 sun days a year!

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
Big AL

jp_2

numbers don't add up

if you stopped at a local fast food place and asked # of gallons oil used per day and then stopped at a local gas station and ask the same question you'd figure out it would not be pratical. its a great idea but, we use way too much fuel and do not eat enough french fries.

DaveGateway

True, but

We are filling up land fills faster then anything and a good part of that is reclaimable bio waste. Bottom line as said, big oil and detroit are not interested. Hybrid car projects are still a joke. (GM offers nothing and even killed the EV1 battery car after spending a billion or so on it to make the government happy). 100% bio diesel might be unrealistic but a 20% mix should be required. Gasoline is a 10% ethanol mix in the NY area. That must be a boat load of corn/grain every week.

jp_2

I agree!

Constantin

Yup,

the WSJ noted some weeks ago that the fuel choices in many part of the country were maxing out the allowable ethanol limits since the ethanol had become cheaper than the gasoline, up to 30% of the fuel mix, IIRC.

Interestingly, since ethanol has a much lower caloric value than gasoline, should gas stations be forced to sell such fuel on a per-BTU basis instead of per gallon?

Biodiesel is a great idea and I am seriously considering using it in our home for heating. However, the local mix is B10 and about $0.20 more per gallon than regular #2.

I couldn't agree more that hybrid cars make a ton of sense for urban and semi-urban driving environments. Long distance doesn't benefit at all though... so buses and cars in and around cities would do up to 25% better with a hybrid system than without one.

The question I ask myself is why American companies keep shortchanging the US customers... Toyota brings out the Prius and is now sold out more than a year in advance... cool features can sell cars, yet the big three have to license the technology from others because they cannot get their own acts in gear.

Constantin

Absolutely right...

... I must have had too much New Year wine when I wrote that Greenland had a lot of volcanic action. I meant Iceland, really! ;-)

Anyway, I totally agree with you that the usage of hydrogen in a home setting is a joke. While generating it on-site in a controlled environment may make sense (think of the steam generator inside a SOFC power plant), transferring and storing vast quantities of the stuff will require a level of precision and quality that I doubt can be installed/used cost effectively.

m dewolfe

biodiesel

My neighbor has been running his car on fyolator oil for several months now with almost no problems to speak of. It helps that he owns three great resturants in fairfield county so the fuel supply never dwindles. Currently he runs a 2001 mercedes with a second tank and a small heater loop in the tank to keep the stuff warm enough to flow and off he goes to work in the morning. very very cool in my book. however I have gained about 40 pounds just sniffing as his car goes by...makes me want to have fries with every meal

Carl PE_2

Thank You, Connie

Interestingly, since ethanol has a much lower caloric value than gasoline, should gas stations be forced to sell such fuel on a per-BTU basis instead of per gallon?

I've been trying to explain this to people for quite some time, but the marketing is too deep.

"But this one has more OCTANE, it must be better.. somehow"

I couldn't agree more that hybrid cars make a ton of sense for urban and semi-urban driving environments. Long distance doesn't benefit at all though... so buses and cars in and around cities would do up to 25% better with a hybrid system than without one.

We run our city buses on CNG and biodiesel.

The question I ask myself is why American companies keep shortchanging the US customers...

I'm not going to throw any gas on that particular fire, but thanks..

Darin Cook_3

I have a bio-diesel project in the near future

I will be using a solar panel to bring the fluid up to the required 140' range. The room will be sealed with a explosion proof fan and fresh air intake to get rid of the highly flammable gases produced. Owner can produce the boi-diesel for about 60 to 70 cents a gallon. I agree with the comment about the supply of fryolator oil or whatever right now. If everyone was to jump on this right now, there would not be enough waste oil to go around. But any kind of bio-oil can be used. Fresh soybean or corn or whatever. It actually makes the process easier because you do not have to strain the oil. Which is a pain using waste oil. Your mileage and horsepower are increased using bio-diesel. You MUST pre-heat this fuel when it gets cold out. This is a fuel source where there is a renewable future. How much farm land in the US is not utilized right now? The biggest problem as I see it with alternative energies is that there is no payback on the expense involved. That can be changed if people press for it.


Darin

Weezbo

ok.........You Guessed it! That is the minor technicality.....

that i have seen associated with the idea. i wont elaborate buh it took nearly a year to get rid of the particular aroma ...

m dewolfe

bio diesel

"cooked off" oils have no odor but are more expensive.Using raw products CAN boost your bottom line if you are the guy with the local onion ring concesion.....biodiesl is most often cooked using lye witch has a host of problems too.....oh well