Flow problems in NTI Trinity install

Chuckles_3

I'm the home owner. Had NTI Trinity (150)installed last March to replace old Franks(?)boiler. Frank's had output approx. 140,000 btu, new Trinity has 136,000 btu. Split loop monoflow baseboard radiator system. Only changes are improved air tightness and insulation. Old boiler kept up well, new Trinity can't keep up on cold days, overheats on mild days, takes an hour per C. degree to raise temperature, howls like a banshee, and emits plume which freezes as yellow ice. I'm sure its a flow problem, but contractor says nothing wrong. Can anyone see the problem in the attached schematic or photo? Help would be appreciated.

eric_2

trinity

Wasn't able to see the schematic. NTI is great with tech service. Phone # is 506-432-1130

Dale

Air?

Monoflo systems are really bad to purge air from. I don't see an air eliminator on your schematic. What are your inlet and outlet flow temps? If there's air the delta t of the mains will be really low as the heat emiters aren't. I'm not sure what flow velocity is optimum for monoflow, perhaps this changed also.

Einsiedler_2

setup

Was the boiler properly setup via combustion analysis?
if you are above 2000ft (hi-alt), proper testing is IMPERATIVE.

I just looked at scheme+Pic and Aaron is correct. there are several problems with this design. Who did that schematic?

Hate seeing pumps with the electrical box hanging off the bottom..

Ein

Aaron_3

Piping

The fault isn't the boiler's.

You have installation issues which must be addressed.

There are many red flags in your picture and by your description,

but too numerous to address here. Find a top notch hydronics man that

can trouble shoot this and give you a sound design, or e-mail me directly and

I'll give you my phone number. This boiler should be quiet and actually keep

up better then the previous one.

Weezbo

i think there are vagarities in the piping....

id re think it with a pipe wrench... No. , ...i know i would.

Chuckles_3

Thanks, everyone. There is never any air in the rads, we are in the Ottawa valley so alt is not the problem. Return temp seems to be slightly less than supply temp, but I will have it read. The rads give off heat, but not real hot like old system.
I certainly think it is a flow problem, but I need to identify exact problem(s) and give installing contractor a chance to fix it. Merry Christmas, (but hope its not too cold through the holidays).

Einsiedler_2

sentry control

What is the Sentry Control diled in at for lo & hi temps?

Chuckles_3

HI is 180, LO is 180 (for Indirect dhw). DIFF is 30, RES is set at 90 right now to try and get some action.

Kyle Kubs - Benchmark Home Inspections

Explosion Hazard...

Mike - Just want to add two things. You say the boiler emits a plume which freezes as yellow ice... Is this by chance an oil fired boiler? I would say first off that the burner is not properly calibrated. Also if it is a condensing boiler there should be a drain somewhere for the condensate to escape, - If the flu/vent should clog with ice you could fill your house with CO in no time. Finally, the blackpipe discharge tube coming off the pressure relief valve should not under any circumstances have a threaded end on it... It never fails when these start to leak, or worse purge due to high pressure, someone comes along and screws a pipe cap right on there and calls it problem solved. You may know better but the next homeowner or a well meaning older child trying to help dad, may not.

S Davis

Combustion

It sounds like you might be having incomplete combustion, if you are not burning properly your boiler might not be putting out the heat it is supposed to, when the boiler fires on a call for domestic hot water does the boiler come up to temp? say 160-180 degrees.
If you do not have a Co detector in the house I would get one!

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Greg Swob

Couldn't tell by the photo if your fuel gas line is flex, sized too small or what run distance. These issues can lead to whining sounds. If these are correct, fine tuning the firing rate (by this I mean gas/air mixture) with a combustion analyzer will set the burner for proper combustion. There are other issues, with piping and these have been addressed by others.

Seriously, the NTI Trinity is one fine little machine! I've only installed a few, but have received nothing but compliments from the owners. One is bragging on how much more comfortable his home is now and said he doesn't miss having to bleed his radiators regularly anymore. He has made a standing invitation to permit us to bring prospective owners to see the install, and talk to them.

Really, it's all in the piping! Thanks to Dan's books and NTI's detailed installation instructions, I think we are doing our customers a service with these boilers. Best wishes to your family for the Holiday season and hope all goes well with resolving the install issues. Greg

Chuckles_3

Actually, that's interesting. When the boiler was installed, the plume was backdrafting against the house and all the windows were iced over. All the family complained of sore throats, myself included. The vent was moved up the vacant chimney,(clay liner, abs pipe). Now after two days of extreme cold, the ice buildup is quite yellow (See photo). the plume never seems to be blowing hard and fast.

But the boiler reaches HI (180), and LO (180)on dhw call quite normally. We often run out of hot water.
We do have a CO detector running.

Chuckles_3

Great feedback.
This is a gas fired condensing modulating boiler. Gas line is black iron (?), and only about 12-18 inches in length.

Contractor says he never did combustion analysis because it is factory tested.

Pressure relief valve often leaks. Note it is upside down.

Condensate runs to sewer line. Doesn't seem to discharge that much water though! Hear it dripping occassionally.

S Davis

Combustion

Is this natural gas or propane?
It states in the manual in section 5-2 it is the installers responsibility to test for proper combustion, did they at least check the gas pressure?

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Chuckles_3

Great feedback.
This is a gas fired condensing modulating boiler. Gas line is black iron (?), and only about 12-18 inches in length.

Contractor says he never did combustion analysis because it is factory tested.

Pressure relief valve often leaks. Note it is upside down.

Condensate runs to sewer line. Doesn't seem to discharge that much water though! Hear it dripping occassionally.

Chuckles_3

Manual says installer must test for proper combustion if input screw was adjusted. He says he never checked because his crew would never adjust the input screw. I don't know if they ever checked the gas pressure. Would have to presume so, as it has the gas installers certificate attached to the pipe.

Chuckles_3

Sorry, forgot to post the picture of the buildup. See attached.

rich pickering

Maybe it is the angle, but that vent doesn't look proper.Chimney cap is a no-no. Should be a 90 ell. And is the combustion air vent there? It's all in the manual.

Chuckles_3

Air intake is down near ground level. This is permitted with Trinity. Its hard to see but there is a 90d elbow. Cap can be removed.

But what about the colour of the ice. Looks very acidic to me. Why?

My neighbour has a Weil-MacLean and it blows a white plum far into the air with no buildup at all. Obviously same weather conditions.

Dave Stroman

As you can see, Mike, most of the resposes echo what we talked about(we have been talking off the wall). If the boiler fires up and reaches its high limit, it is not a boiler problem. It is a flow problem. You will never solve the problem until the piping is redone.

This the first time I have seen the flue pipe. You need to get it up out of the chimney and away from any place where the ice can build up and block the flue. A combustion analyses would be good to do but from what I have seen, if it way out of whack, it will not run. It will just huff and puff.

As for the air intake at ground level and the outlet on the roof, these 2 must be installed in such a way that they "see" the same pressure. Wind can cause a problem if this is not done. Trinity does not recomend this type of installation, but it can be done. If the boiler trips out or locks up, this may be the problem.

Dave in Denver

Weezbo

Wow!

is there something about 5' from an openenable window is venting into a soffit oki dokie as long as theres a gert hole in it? that sure looks off the charts to me from the picture.

Brian

Contact

Mike
If your in The Ottawa Valley then contact NTI's head office and get the name of their rep. in the area.It may be Brian Granger,I'm not sure if his area goes that far.Also there top field tech.is in Montreal he is probably in the area fairly often.It definitly looks like you have some piping issues.

Good Luck
Brian

P.S. Have a Beaver Tail for me.

Mark Eatherton1

Its a flow problem...

One pipe systems require a rather high flow rate to effectively get flow through the side branches to the convectors. Unfortunately, when you get a high flow rate, you also get a high pressure drop. You need a much larger pump on the heating loop than the 1542 that is currently there.

Also, as for the venting issue, the ice IS acidic. It has a pH of around 5. Have your installer get rid of the 90, and leave the vent terminus pointing straigh up. Worst case, during a rain storm you might get a little extra fluid flowing back through the boiler, but no big deal. A complete block off of the flue vent will lock the boiler out, and then you get to contend with a frozen home.

Regardless of what your contractor says, EVERY gas fired, or even oil fired appliance should be checked with a combustion analyzer at the time of commissioning.

If you don't know where you've been, how ya going to know where you're going???

Bigger pump, and fix that venting issue.

ME

Einsiedler_2

Manual not only says to adjust if adjustment screw is adjusted, it also says it is a must if installed hi-alt.

COMBUSTION TEST PLEASE...

rich pickering

What's the head loss of a mono-flow tee? I think your secondary pump may be too small.

Chuckles_3

Thanks, all, for the great feedback. The powervent cap is being removed, to eliminate this as a possible cause of any problems.
House is 2F below setpoint which has been constant for days. Trinity display reads 14F (outdoor temp), input is 45 (minimal input) and water temp is 167 (HI 180). Boiler is running constantly.
So, seems there must be a flow problem, howling continues, bang when boiler turns off.
I'm still interested in your ideas and comments.
I appreciate all the help everyone has offered, and all the great ideas. Some are communicating directly with me on specifics, so I'm sure I will get to the heart of the problem. Armed with your comments, I can now discuss some of the possible changes with the Contractor.
This is a great forum, all who contribute should be proud of the selfless effort respondents make to improve your industry. As an outsider, its the most valuable resource imaginable.
Wishing you all a happy and prosperous New Year. Thank you.

Weezbo

it is interesting to me that you are having the same last

name as a Paul Tremblay...there was a bit of a jot in dec. 2004 Oilheating journal on page 19...