Everything looks OK, but slow heatup now.

Brian_7

Hi all- need your expertise. I'm the homeowner but frequently lurked here a while back. My installer is new to IFR heating. And I think hundreds of heads are better than two.

The house was built in 2002, 2320 sq.ft. located in Niagara, Ontario all PEX loops set in concrete. System by Wirsbo. 4 thermostats; Zone 1 basement, 4 loops ; Zone 2 main floor, 6 loops; Zone 3 upper floor divided into 2 sub-zones, one is 4, one is 3 loops, via telestats.
We occupied the house intermittently in winter of 2003 when we noticed some areas were warmer and others cooler, but didn't want to "mess" with balancing until we were in the house full-time. At that time we turned the heat down by 4-5 degrees when we left for a few days and found that the house warmed up at a little less than 1 degree F/ hour when we returned. We had also asked that a guest area be made cooler until occupied when we would then open flow controls to warm that area of the zone.

The problem - Last year the system had no problem supplying heat to the house under the coldest conditions. This year, the circulator has been running continuously for 4 days that I know of now and has not been able to maintain temperature at night or now that it gets colder outside. The guest area is as cold as ever and we're expecting guests over the hoidays. The water temp going into each zone is around 100F and exits at ambient temperature, just as it did last year. There is no visual evidence of air in the system at the PEX tubing connected to the manifolds.
At the first startup of this season the pump was seized and was replaced by an identical one (Armstrong Astro 30B)and I just confirmed myself that it's rotating in the correct direction. Only water comes from the bleed screw in the pump. I don't believe any sealer was used installing the pump that would have gotten into the system.

My questions - do these symptoms look like a flow problem? -is it possible that the flow controls could be accumulating debris (mineral or other?) and the flow has been reduced, causing the problem? I am familiar that industrial pneumatic and hydraulic flow controls have this problem when turned to low settings. I did open and close (to their original positions) one set of flow contols but it didn't seem to help.

I also noticed that after one heating season that at least 3 of the 17 flow controls are leaking slowly (efflorescence and mineral deposits on the outside)and are rusted and leaving a rust stain trail inside and visible through the PEX tubing. Possibly the others are corroding (not visible yet)as well and this has reduced the flow? (I did think, and certainly judging by the price, that Wirsbo would be supplying quality components.)

My plumber suggests that because there is no evidence of air at the manifold tubing and the the tubes going into the floors are warm and the tubes exiting the floors are cold that air is not the problem. That and there is an automatic air bleeder installed in the system. But my question to you is - could air not still be trapped somewhere in the 1/2" PEX loops in the floor that would impede the flow through them? I envision a trapped bubble could still allow water to flow around its edges if the flow were not great enough to eject it.

Thankyou in advance for any experiences. (I know I ask a lot of questions in a long posting on this holiday season.) - Brian.

Weezbo

Well balancing happens in many ways....

if you and the plumber decided Not to balance the system the system will balance its self....now it doesnt Oh Particulaily Care what You Think Feel or want it simply finds a state of equilibrium and rolls with it.......................so hmmm......try this for 20 mins .......close down every zone in the place except the guest room........then open up what you think is the smallest zone..........let it run for 20 mins then find what you think is the highest length zone..........open it and let it run after that hour is over ,open all the zones to like 72F and leave them be...Now unless you have theloop lengths committed to memory or a pressure differential by pass i think you gonna need Help. make sure you keep the boiler pressure up from the beginning of this endeavour to the end of it. what does the boiler pressure read now? add water untill it says 20pounds...and keep adding water each time you open a zone to bring it back up to 20psi...after the third zone is balanced at 20 psi just leave it alone(dont add more water)...and call someone to balance the system if that hasnt made it work better... i forgot to ask ..do you have a 4 way mixer or is this variable speed or pulsed injection?

Brian_7

Hi Weezbo-

The system is heated by a 73 gallon Bradford-White 75,000 Btu input HWH with mixing valve down to IFR temperature and auto-fill from city water and pressure reducer to what I guess is around 20psi or so. The HWH cycles on and off normally during all this, lots of hot water for showers etc, so there is plenty of heat available, it's just not getting distributed.

I don't believe the plumber has decided not to balance- but he just hasn't done it yet.(I hope that's the case anyway!)I also think that he is not sure how to accomplish this, and neither am I, but since I'm the homeowner I have more time at my disposal to do it. I haven't altered anything in case there are any problems they can't point the finger at me! The plumber just used the number of "turns out" on the flow controls recommended by Wirsbo and left them at that.

You wrote..."try this for 20 mins .......close down every zone in the place except the guest room........then open up what you think is the smallest zone..........let it run for 20 mins then find what you think is the higest zone..........open it and let it run after that hour is over open all the zones to like 72F and leave them be"

I'm not sure what you mean by "the smallest zone" and "the highest zone"? Would those be the shortest loop and the hottest loop, or the one highest up in the house?

I can write down initial settings on the flow controls so that I can return to them, and I won't touch a thing without my plumber's OK first, but I'd certainly like to try your suggestion if I can be clear on it.

Thanks - Brian.

Weezbo

we were on the same page at the same time:)

i just finished editing it to make it a bit clearer...if the guest room is the shortest loop(zone) and the longest is the one with like the 6 loops on it then hang with me on this one...i just went and checked a 4 plex today with some wirsbo manifolds and loops i didnt install that i convinced my buddy who did the work to put in Taco Pump blocks:) so its in my best interest to make him look Good:)and when you have heat then you look good:) ok well happy at aleast:)

Maine Ken

\"Open\" System???

This sounds like an open system. Is your heating side isolated from your potable side??? If not, and with non barrier pex, you can have all sorts of problems. Being air bound is the least of your worries.

"Maine" Ken

Dave_22

questions

Was there ever a heat loss done before installation? Any idea of what your floor temp is in the house? Have you covered your floors with rugs or anything since last year? Is there an air purge on the system? Maybe you are not putting out as much as needed- you may be able to crank up the temp out to the loops , but you have to know what your floor temps are and what you have for floors in the house.
And if you wanted the temps in your guestroom to heat up quick, they probably should have installed baseboard- in concrete radiant has a LONG recovery time. I am in Buff,NY if ou need any assistance.

Rudy

Hi Ken - The system is a closed system.

Hi Dave - The floor coverings have not changed, but any temperature differences due to tile/carpet were noted by us last year and we accept that. I didn't expect a fast heat-up in the guest room because we usually know ahead of time when guests arrive. I expect that I would turn it up a day or two ahead and that would be sufficient. There is an auto air purge installed in the system.

My plumber suggests turning the HWH temp higher, but I can't see this because it was OK at that temperature last year when the temperature of the house didn't waver from the set point by more than a degree C or so - it's just covering up a symptom of the real problem. But I guess I'll have to do it anyway as a stop-gap measure because colder temperatures are forecasted and the holiday is almost here now. I expect that a rebalance will be necessary after that because the warm areas will then be too warm, but at least I will be able to return the HWH easily to its initial setting.

I don't know exactly what my floor temps are now or were last year, except that the tile floor in the guest bathroom that was just cool to the feet last year and is COLD to the feet this year at the same settings measures 62 degrees using one of those flat magnetic room thermometers that my wife put down on it! I'll take some measurements.

My plumber says that Wirsbo says that some leakage is "normal" at these flow control valves!I don't like the sound of that as there's about a half ounce there now, and my wife is losing confidence in the heating system of our new "dream home". (A dream home to us, anyway.)

Thanks for the replies looks -like air entrapment isn't my problem then. My suspicions go back to the pump - it's really the only thing changed. It is running at about 120 degrees on the body pumping 100 degree water.(I can keep my hand on it for a few seconds only.) Does that sound normal?

Thanks - Brian.

Weezbo

Ok Been snoozin or gaining on it?

Rudy

weezbo

Neither - I'm at work now. It'll be a while before I know anything. When I get home I'm just going to turn up the HWH temp for now - hope that gets me through. Thanks - Brian.

Weezbo

Brian,not one of the various sized loops of indeterminable

length on the 4 plex just going by the numbers is more than 3 degrees difference on the returnwater nor is there water hotter than 91 degrees going into it,not one room is cooler than 56 degrees and he only thing upstairs is a vapor barrier on the ceiling in one of the appartments another has vapor barrier and sheetrock hung yesterday, and it has and will BE cold around here...i really have to say that having numers to go by beats the heck out of crystal ball gazing:) once the insulations in up stairs and its sheet rocked we will lose the set point t stats controling from the upstairs room on each apartment and take some measurements again and fine tune this header just a bit more before installing the remaining tel stats.

Unknown

you mention 100 deg supply temp and "ambient" return temps.

If this means you have a 30 degree temperature drop across the loop, then I'd say you definitely have a flow problem.

you have some small leaks at the telestats; do you have any larger leaks?

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Brian_7

On my plumber's advise I raised the HWH temp to the "HOT" detente (next hotter to where it was) and the water temperature after the mixing valve going into the manifolds is now around 115 degrees instead of 100. He said that the water is going through some 300' loops (that's news to me, I thought I checked on installation that none was longer than 250'- but that's just what they told me, I guess now I should have measured it personally) and you need a higher temperature for longer loops. But that doesn't make sense either because the loops are the same length now as they were last year when things worked better! After 4 hours the main floor thermostat display went from 20 degrees Celcius calling for heat to 20 degrees not calling for heat, so it's satisfied. Although I did start a fire (couldn't resist)in the fireplace which may have given a false sense of success. Outside temp is dropping from mid 30's F to below freezing now. The upper floor is still 20 C degrees and calling for heat. The basement is set at 17 degrees C and seems to have been satisfied there for the last day. There is no change in the guest bathroom tile floor temp of 62 F.

My plumber told me today that Wirsbo says that no parts in the flow controls are ferrous, so they can't be rusting. So I went and double-checked that and found, guess what - the stem from the flow control was not only rusted, but rusted right through so that it came off when I took it apart!- after one heating season. This looks like it must be the flow control that services the guest bathroom tile floor. So Wirsbo gave him false information about it being non-ferrous.(I also checked it and it was magnetic.) When I called my plumber back to see how soon the parts would be in I got a message saying he was on vacation until January! - and he knew I had guests coming! Unfortunately I paid this guy way too much (through a GC) and too soon. I guess it's my fault for being too patient with him. The heating system was installed when the weather was warm and they said they would return to balance it and that still hasn't been done over a year later.

NRT.Rob- I think that temperature drop indicates a flow problem as well, but I wanted to hear someone in the business say it, because for me, it's only intuition, and I'm not in the business. Thanks for your input.

So now I am more certain that it is a flow control problem - the gradual corrosion of the valves is closing the orifice and causing a decrease in flow rate. This scenario fits what I have observed. And unscrewing the flow controls will not necessarily widen the opening in the valve if its siezed with corrosion. So if this is, in fact, the case now I have to hope that Wirsbo will stand behind their product. There are 17 of these flow controls and 3 are faulty/ rusting after 1 year. And our water here is not particularly corrosive - it's slightly alkaline.

Question to anyone- has anyone used Wirsbo flow control valves (cast bronze manifold with black conical caps for adjustment)for any length of time and had problems with rusting on the stem or anywhere? My plumber did say that the part was not in stock but on back order, which implies to me that it is a part at least somewhat in demand because 1- they stock it, and 2- they are selling them because someone else before my plumber bought one to make it on back order.

I don't want to be doing any of this- I paid someone else well to do it and I just want my house reliably warm. So unless I want to pay for someone else to come out (and thankyou for the gracious offer, by the way Dave) I guess I have to live with these problems until January. Sheesh.
Thankyou all for your expertise.

Patient in Ridgeway.- Brian.

BTW- just checked and the circulator has shut off for the first time in 5 days. Yipee! (for now.)

Ray Landry

A picture is worth 1000 words... If you have any pics of the near boiler piping it may help us find your problem. When you talk about leaking balancing fitting are you talking about the 6mm allen screws on the bottom of the manifolds?

jesse the great

BRIAN

you might be able to help your self a little i dont know how they do thigs in your neck of the woods but usually when a contractor is determins your heat loss its made by wirsbo softwere so you might be able to go down to a plumbing and heating wholesaler who sells wirsbo and they might have saved your homes heat loss in there computer
and on your heat loss print out it tells you what the balances should be set at

give that a try its worth a shot

S Davis

Wirsbo

I have used Wirsbo for over 12 years and never have had what you describe happen and all I do is Radiant and boiler work so I have hundreds of installs out there, If it is a problem with the manifolds Wirsbo is the company you want to be dealing with they will take care of you.
You did mention this is a closed system but did they use HePex tubing or is it AuquaPex?

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Brian_7

Hi Ray

Ask and you shall receive. Here's the rough layout.

The closeup of the two connections on the bronze manifold shows one with the black dust cap removed. These caps are removed and inverted and used as a key to turn an internal black threaded collar which surrounds the protruding pin to adjust the flow. The caps in their normal upright position (shown)function as dust caps and are threaded on loosely and don't push down on the stem, but as I understand it, they can also be screwed all the way down to shut off the flow completely. They are normally open, if you push down on the pin it will spring back up open. When a telestat is mounted (not shown) it takes the place of the black cap and in the closed position it pushes on the pin to shut off the flow. When the telestats open they release force from the stem, which rises under internal spring pressure and opens the flow control to the open limit preset by the internal threaded black collar. It's a neat design - if theory can be made to meet practise.

The closeup shows one of the leaking/rusting flow controls with the black cap removed. This is the most convenient one to photograph and is not the worst one or the one that has seized and plugged. To my knowledge it has not been adjusted since installation. This particular one and another one which is rusting is not subject to the constant dynamic up and down movement that a telestat would subject it to. You can also see in one of the pictures (maybe) evidence that the rusting is taking place internally and depositing on (staining) the PEX. Compare the colour of the PEX tube in that one to the colour of the one next to it. It's very pronounced in real life.

The stem appears to reduce in diameter at its base where it is fixed to the valve somehow and this is where it rusted through completely and separated from the rest of the body. You normally cannot take the stem out and hold it in your hand. Lucky this side of the flow control is not under line pressure! I don't plan on any further dissassembly at this point. No tools required to this point and I don't want to risk interfereing with any warrantee issues.

I view this as either a poor choice of materials or a failure in quality control of the materials during manufacture. I think it's something that a company like Wirsbo presented themselves to me as would want to know about and fix pronto! It actually looks like it might even have been made from chrome plated steel, but I won't commit to that without further examination - it's a pretty wild accusation.

Thanks for the interest, I'm sure we can get this problem resolved.

- Brian.

Brian_7

Hi S Davis

It's aquapex and the domestic water in the house is also plumbed using the same tubing.

Have you worked on a manifold/ flow control system such as I have pictured below?

Thankyou for the reassurance about Wirsbo. I confess I had actually specified another competitors heating system for the house because I was more familiar with them. The heating contractor and others I spoke with said very good things about Wirsbo being a "Cadillac" company and backing their product so I went with them. I guess I'm certainly now in a position to find out first hand how true that is.

Regards - Brian.

Mark Eatherton1

Bad news Brian...

First off, based on your statements, this is NOT a closed loop heating system. If it is doing your DHW AND your space heating, it is an OPEN system. Regardless, if it WAS a closed loop system and you used Aqua PEX, it's the same as an open system. Based on the picture of the near heater piping, there is a ferrous component right there in the picture in the form of an Amtrol expansion tank that is normally only used on TRUE closed loop heating systems. If that's true, your plunger may have sold you a bill of goods...


ME

Brian_7

Hi mark

> First off, based on your statements, this is NOT

> a closed loop heating system. If it is doing your

> DHW AND your space heating, it is an OPEN system.

> Regardless, if it WAS a closed loop system and

> you used Aqua PEX, it's the same as an open

> system. Based on the picture of the near heater

> piping, there is a ferrous component right there

> in the picture in the form of an Amtrol expansion

> tank that is normally only used on TRUE closed

> loop heating systems. If that's true, your

> plunger may have sold you a bill of

> goods...

>

> ME

Brian_7

Hi Jesse

I've asked both the GC and the plumber several times for the Wirsbo design sheets and he has yet to give them to me. He also told me that the layout is not "exactly" as Wirsbo specified on their drawing anyway, which did concern me when I found out. He also doesn't know exactly where the loops lead to in the floor and that will make for some more trial and error balancing on his part.

I actually suspected at one point during the installation that he might not have marked down where the loops lead so I wrote them down in pencil on a stud above the manifold. Unfortunately the level of finish on the understair storage area was greater than I expected and my writing was covered up by the drywallers!

I should be able to go around and count the number of "turns in" on each of the flow controls to determine their initial settings, which I would expect would have been set to Wirsbo's specifications. I did this before I made any changes to the flow contols which I suspected led to the guest room so I could return to them if I needed to (which I did).

Brian_7

Hi Mark

Yah- it does LOOK like an open system, but it's NOT! My apologies, I didn't mention that it's waht they call a "Combicore" or something like that - the HX is manufactured with, and located inside, the HWH.

In any event, the water is protected from directly contacting the metal walls of the expansion tank by a flexible membrane, is it not?

And, Hey Mark - no more scaring me with bad news, ay?

-Brian.

Weezbo

4X sound familiar?

Mark Walnicki_2

The pex question

What pex was used for the radiant floors?

You mentioned it was Aqua Pex. Are you absolutely sure?

We all need to be 100% certain on *exactly* what was installed in the floors.

Ray Landry

Hey brian it mght be apain to see but there should be loop lengths printed on the tubing right from wirsbo. if you look at your supply and return tubes subtract the two and that will let you know how long the loop is. As for the leaking telestat connection, that's a new one one me..

Unknown

If the tubing is aquapex, and you have any cast iron components at all; pumps, for example.. then rust could be plugging things.

I've never, ever heard of wirsbo manifolds rusting. I have heard of scaling or corrosion issues with freshwater systems, but yours isn't, unless the coil in the combicore has corroded already and is allowing water to mix. That could be possibility, perhaps, if your water quality is really bad.

Oxygen alone won't take down a wirsbo manifold though. It has to be something else.

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Brian_7

Hi Mark

Absolutely sure Aquapex from Wirsbo. Says in blue ink all along the tubing.

Brian_7

Hi NRT.Rob

One of the things I did specify when agreeing to the Wirsbo system was that ALL components be non-corroding. I thought less of Wirsbo when I found out the CI would have been their standard pump body (after being told it would be a "Cadillac" system), whereas other manufactures offer a choice between Bronze and Stainless (and at lower overall cost), and wouldn't even offer CI.

I did go with the bronze body and was dismayed to find rust was forming in the system after making it known that without compromise I wanted all non-corrosive parts. I was told that the rust was carried in with the water, but I am understandably sceptical.

- Brian.

Weezbo

*`/:){(...)

every one wanted to see me in my santa suit...so i am back by popular request ..........well, hows things Brian? is there heat being distributed everywhere again?

Brian_7

Hi Ray

That'll be excellent if in fact that's the case. I'll check that - there are numbers all along the tube. Thanks!!!
Happy Holidays - Brian.

Brian_7

Hi Weez-

Yup, actually the hotter HWH temp helps maintain the temperature in the house for now. The guest bathroom floor is still 62 degrees, but we can live with it for now. I'm at my sister's house about a half hour away from the house, but tommorrow morning when we're home a nice warm fire in the fireplace will keep us cozy during the Christmas snow storm we're having.

Thanks for asking - Happy Holidays. - Brian.

Art Pieterman_2

Brian:

Hi, I am a technical/sales rep for HeatLink Canada. While you are just outside of my territory (I take care of Southwestern Ontario - west of Hwy #6) if need be, I would be willing to come and take a look at your system, at no charge. Even though Wirsbo is my competitor, you are right in that they, like most of us IFH manufacturers, make excellent products. However, since they changed agents a couple of years ago in your area, their technical support has declined a little, and this is an area that HeatLink particularily shines, mainly due to the fact that we are factory reps, not sales agents (being a plumber also kind of helps). As an IFH manufacturer we are interested in making sure homeowners are happy with their IFH system, and are willing to trouble shoot anytime we are requested to do so, in the interest of promoting IFH, so you can pass this great news to your friends and neighbours.

So please feel free to contact me directly via apieterman@heatlink.ca.

Looking forward to hearing from you, and meanwhile have a very happy holiday!

Art Pieterman

Mark Eatherton1

Then it IS the equivilant of an open system...

and you DO have components that are ferrous in nature (expansion tank)and I don't think they were supplied by Wirsbo. If they had been supplied by Wirsbo, they'd have come in a nice enclosure, and not spread across the wall as shown in your pictures. I think you contractor supplied the ferrous components. You need to get your plumber back out there and have them address THIS issue.

I suspect that the Wirsbo manifold failure is water quality oriented, compounded by the fact that you have an open system with ferrous components in it.

If memory serves me correctly, the pin that you suspect as being ferrous is actually stainless steel, and there are some types of stainless steel that are magnetic.

In my non humble professional opinion, Wirsbo is THE BEST system on the market, bar none.

It sounds as if you have many problems with this system, and they appear to be installer oriented, not maufacturer oriented. Once the product leaves the factory, they have ZERO control.

The folks at Wirsbo are the friendliest, most helpful in the world, but they can't correct mistakes poured in cementitious materials.

Good Luck with your problems. We'll help as much as we humanly can.

ME

Brian_7

Hi Mark -

My understanding of the term "closed" is that the water runs in its own loop that is separate and distinct from the domestic water supply (oxygen barrier or no oxygen barrier.) In that sense I considered mine to be a "closed" circulating loop recirculating the same water over and over again. I'm not sure how you equate that to an "open" system. What am I missing here?

When the system was installed I did contact Bradford White directly and they told me that the HX in the tank was "non-ferrous", so I eliminated this from my list of possible sources of rust.

Also - isn't the water in the expansion tank kept from physically contacting the walls of the tank by a membrane? That should prevent the introduction of rust into the water, especially in a brand-new setup? Or does the water contact the tank in this case? If I had known that I wouldn't have allowed that to be installed, unless they're all like that.

Some grades of stainless steel are magnetic, so the magnet test is not conclusive, but I am limited in my ability to examine the pin because I don't want to change its as-found condition (such as cleaning it off or spark testing it) because it will alter the "evidence" for someone knowledgeable in the future trying to figure out the source of the problem. So the magnet test was merely a non-intrusive, non-destructive way for me to help identify a property.

While there are any number of stainless steel alloys that could have been used for this, I would have expected that an alloy that was specifically non-rusting would have been chosen for this application. The rust and pitting within this short time frame is so severe that I can't see that it's any grade of stainless steel at all. It does appear to the eye to be a plated type of steel, which is consistent with the abrasion-resistant property required of a pin sliding repeatedly on an "O"ring, as this one does when telestats are installed.

I do know that the water in the circulating system is drinking municipal tap water and that the water in our area is slightly alkaline, gas-chlorinated and not corrosive.

Interesting to find out that the components might not be all Wirsbo- supplied. I'll have to ask my plumber specifically about this. I will be VERY dissappointed with him if this turns out to be the case, because it certainly was not sold to me as such. And particularly in light of the problems we've been having. The time may come to bypass him and converse with Wirsbo directly.

Thankyou for the good words about Wirsbo- it does help me to know this about them in the event that they do become involved in this. One less concern for us. Certainly they would want to know if situations like this are happening because this does nothing to further the interests of the hydronic heating industry. A lot of local eyes are on my system (it's "new" around here, and no shortage of sceptics)and I have told none of them as yet about these problems. I keep hoping to have them rectified soon. I still believe beyond a doubt that this is THE way to heat a house in our climate.

Let me say that I certainly do appreciate all the time and effort given to me from the experts on this forum. Thankyou.

Happy Holidays - Brian.

Weezbo

hello again Brian .Habby new years:)

wirsbo is top notch company...i have seen what is happening on your manifolds...in ways the crystal ball could never have foretold:) it was operational error. and some mighty fine water supply.and ok yes you could go over and fix things till they broke that always is an option.........you could also Hire some one to fix it till it broke...This is America! heres a story of a man who i buit some stables for his horses Yes With a door...he built a rambeling fence,so they could run ...all according to the codes and plumb and level bla blah...then he let them out they ran down the hill couldnt apply the "Brakes" and broke thier legs...sorry buh that hasnt anything to do with what i am trying to tell you. the often over looked Gumby and Pokey show misplaces some of the sting in that story.It is all a matter of perspective. The manufacturers arent to blame ,the installer did everything that he could ,to make the thing work properly however, there appeared a difuglity ...not that from where for the most part the lack of correctness would lead us to "See". having someone stop by and give you thier proffessional appraisal would be the best idea from what has been said to this point.

Mark Eatherton1

Yes, you have a closed loop system, BUT...

you have non oxygen barrier tubing, which allows the same amount of oxygen into the system as if it WERE an open system. The tank and nipple on the expansion tank is in constant contact with the working water, and it is not a ferrous component. There are some stainless steel expansion tanks (rare) out there, and if you need a tank compatible with an open system, there are some phenolic lined tanks that will fill the bill.

Although Wirsbo does sell complete packaged systems, your's does not apppear to be one.

Water quality issues can also be generated "on site" due to the acidic nature of the fluxes used by the installing contractor. If the system was not properly flushed and treated at the time of commisioning, your problems may be coming from within.

We're here to help. That's why its called Heating Help .com. Be a good citizen and throw a few bucks at the owners by purchasing a few Bricks for the Wall...

Happy Holidays to you and yours.

ME

Unknown

forgive my ignorance on this part, this is my design partner's end of the system designs we do, but we use amtrol expansion tanks on all of our open systems with heat exchangers (open to oxygen, closed loop circulation). I have never once seen a problem with rust from an expansion tank. AFAIK we use the same tanks on both fully closed and open to oxygen systems as well.

Perhaps we're just using the "right" tanks?

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Mark Eatherton1

Perhaps...

you're lucky. Or perhaps, you're using something in the open/closed loop to maintain a high pH. Like glycol.

I can tell you this, on every Entran 2 system I saw (closed loop with non oxygen barrier tubing) the expansion tank was the first component to rot out due to oxygen. Even on poly bute systems run a low temps, the expansion tank is always the first component to fail. So bad in fact, that the state of New Mexico banned the installation of the expansion tanks on the fitting on the bottom of the air seperator. I guess they figured that if it wasn't hanging off the fitting, it couldn't make a THUD when it hits the ground:-) They STILL rot out, regardless of how or where they're mounted.

Hopefully, your partner has the foresight to spec a potable water expansion tank for the systems using non barrier tubing. Either that, or he has the foresight to specificy system fluid pH. The only problem with specing fluid pH is one of maintenance, or a lack there of.

ME

Brian_7

Hi - Mark and Rob - my 2 cents

As an industrial designer/manufacturer when I have questions about the application of a product I consult directly with the tech support (NOT the "sales") people of the manufacturer of that particular product. I consider that if they are not the "last word" (and they are generally conservative), then who is?

In this particular case, the information is located on the Amtrol website which I visited last night. It explicitly states that the use of the extrol 30 tank is not recommended in applications where the tubing is of a non-oxygen barrier type.

I therefore would concur with Mark and consider that the use of the extrol tank is an incorrect application for this product. Simply reading the installations instructions accompanying the tank will also confirm this.

Hey - we all learn stuff here at the wall!

I have noticed (from the web)that there are numerous manufacturers of potable water expansion tanks in North America. I will have to see which are available in my area.

BTW- the unpainted exposed threads on the steel nipple which is welded to the top of my expansion tank is not only rusty around the pipe sealant where it meets the brass fitting, but there is an efflorescence of rust around it as well. Hmmm - I wonder what the INSIDE of that nipple looks like?

- Brian.

Brian_7

Hi Weez

If you mean "turns out" the few I checked are anywhere from 1- 1/4 to 2-5/8 turns out. I would guess that 4 turns out would be that max for this setup, and I would expect that I would want to keep the turns out as maximum as possible and still balance so as not to "throttle" the system more than neccessary.
-Brian.

Weezbo

the 4X is a number used in the equasion to determine...

the actual settings according to loop length .after some rather detailed pencil sharpening ...........once again, balanced to the longest loop or zone.

Unknown

we just got one in for a job we're working on, the tank is clearly marked as "for potable use". So people are using non-potable expansion tanks in open to oxygen systems? Interesting.

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