Monitor's FCX oil fired condensing boiler?

Unknown

without any response so I'll ask again. Have any of you had ANY experience with this boiler? http://mzboiler.com/products/fcx/

I'm thinking about using one and want to know anything & everything concerning condensing oil fired equipment here in the US before I jump in.

For instance: Is there a distribution network for low sulpher high quality home heating oil here in the Northeast? At what cost?

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Tkeny

Bad idea

This unit should never be used unless you are using diesel fuel. Too much to go wrong. Nobody knows how to work on them either.

Hal_2

Not good

I've heard nothing good about this boiler. Is the customer service department open 24/7? You may want to reconcider. Too many what iff's. JMHO

Constantin

Consider your options...

... the FCX has great promise. It's the only boiler rated to withstand the harsh US fuel conditions... much like the condensing Adams Dornback furnaces.

Did I trust my home with one? No, I went for the Vitola because I could get a proven solution at the same price point that wouldn't have the condensation issues. Would I consider using the FCX if I had a clean supply of fuel? Of course! On the other hand, why wouldn't I use the Vitoplus under those circumstances?

Perhaps you can convince the local restaurants to supply you with their spent fryer fat. Then use a BioDiesel rig to brew your own for about $1/gallon. That's a clean source of fuel with almost no sulfur or other nasties to make your life miserable.

Anyway, you may be the best person to test the system out, since you know what to look for and have the equipment to monitor the health of the unit. If they figured out how to make the HX withstand 1700+PPM of sulfur, then I think a lot of people would like to know.

Oh, and MassEnergy has made B10 BioFuel available in the Boston area for about $0.20 more than the usual oil. It's a mix of low sulfur heating oil (90%) and soybean oil (10%), though the actual contamination levels are not mentioned. Once MassEnergy gets back to me, I'll post their answer here.

Ron Schroeder_2

Hi Gary,

I will be looking at one in the next week or two that has been installed for about a year. I'll update you with what I find.

Ron

Ron Schroeder_2

By the way, it is running on regular #2 heating oil.

Ron

Chris_45

FCX

Here's the scoop.
I have one. I have for a few years now. It's an extremely efficient unit. Will cut your costs atleast in half probably more. It's regular maintenance and upkeep is little more than a cleaning, oil filters and a nozel.
Over all I promote this unit. I like it.
In fact I liked it so much that I recieved intensive trainnig from a representative and I now go out and service the unit personally on a regualr basis. I am in the Lancaster, PA area and have no problem traveling up to 100 miles or farther to service a unit if need be.
A few CRUTIAL things about this unit. IT MUST BE INSTALLED BY TRAINED PROFESSIONS PROPERLY FROM THE START!! If you purchase one make sure they are qualified installation technicians trained specifically for this unit and not just by watching a 1/2 hour video. It must have two 10 micron filters on the oil line becasue PA's home fuel oil is very dirty. Suggested purchase of the low sulfer oil as that is best for this unit.
A few Specs you should know about:It must have a DanFoss .05 80Degree Nozel on it at all times. It must have some sort of 'trap' on the drain hose from the condenser. And last but not least it must have proper ventilation/exhaust hook up becasue of its dual exhause/air intake all in one line. There's more little specs to this unit, of course, but these are basics.
As far as finding qualified techs to service this unit they are scarce. I basically got into the repair of FCX's becasue of that reason. But all you need is one good, qualified person and you all can feel free to email or call me and I will schedule an apptment. WWW.CHREPAIR.COM is my parent companies site and I can be contacted at the numbers listed there. All parts are easily obtainable locally or through the New Jersey MPI company. They will over night parts if need be.
I generally charge a small travel fee if it's a longer distance and comparable hourly rates for the actual service. Unlike other companies I do not 'guess' what might be wrong becasue i KNOW what is wrong. I won't try and get you to replace tons of parts that are fine either. I try and keep the costs at the very minimal. Saving money is what this unit is all about and so am I! There really isn't much to this unit to go wrong so the repairs are very simple. Most parts are inexpensive and the routine parts are very well priced. I can say that the fuel cost savings are very hard to beat no matter what other brand of furnace you decide to go with. Like I said before, I fully support this product. I own one and depend on it daily. Once it's taken care of by a qualified technician it will never let you down.

Weezbo

ok i buy what you are saying..... how about some pics

i like the idea and have seriously considered going with a LP model..oil would suit me better..do rapp on this is of interest to me ..

Chris_45

picts

Hello. Here are a few picts from MPI's web page on the FCX model and its water tank unit and a flow diagram for the burner. Either gas or oil this unit is efficient for both. Depends on your personal preference and availability and price of the fuel resources in your area.

Weezbo

ok totally thank you.

Unknown

Chris, some questions?

Thank you for your input.

Is there anyone you know of in the New England area who is as or (nearly as) familiar with the FCX as you? Who makes the unit for MPI and from what country does it come from? Why would you want to burn LP in this unit when the MZ fills that spot perfectly? How many times do they need to be serviced a year on regular #2 oil?

Further, I would have to disagree with you that "all you need is one good, qualified person." What if that person can't make it. He gets hurt or worse. When it gets below freezing, it's after hours and the no heat calls come in & the closest parts to get unit running again are in Jersey,. Where are the homeowners going to sleep and who's going to pay to fix all the split water pipes and everything elce that happens to a residence when it freezes up solid as a block of ice?

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Unknown

Constantin,

I don't think you can get a Vito Plus in this country yet. I'd be really interested in this Bio-Fuel's contamination level.

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Constantin

You're right, of course.

We can't get the Vitoplus or the VitolaPlus, or about 80% of the things that either Viessmann manufactures themselves or has other people private-label for them. That doesn't mean I can't dream about them... The Viessmann web site in Germany states allowable contamination levels between 300-500PPM sulfur, IIRC, so folk have to opt for the low-sulfur option over there also.

The interesting point this brings up, of course, is how consumers in Europe can apparently be trusted to maintain their heating appliances adequately in ways that US consumers obviously cannot. Plus, we have more codes in the US regarding heating appliances than the entire pan-EU space. These two factors, combined with a comparatively small market adequately explain the reluctance of Viessmann to offer more stuff in this country.

If the coming US fuel standards are reasonably certain to have their allowable contamination levels reduced, then investing in a condensing boiler option "early" could be interesting indeed. However, given the track record of the current administration WRT concessions to Big Energy, its opposition to energy conservation, etc. I voted for a non-condensing boiler. It wouldn't be the first time that the Bush administration castrated the EPA efforts to clean our air, the DoE efforts at Energy Conservation, etc.

After all, if the Vitola can operate at about 90% "AFUE" under radiant conditions, that's pretty good indeed. I still have room and access to retrofit a secondary HX later on...

Kal Row

i am to do a system - for a customer..

and am faced with the same choice dilemma


the system now is a hydronic oil burner, with 105,000 output into a 3 zone 61,000btu fin/baseboard load – ugh on the btu waste, and a separate oil fired HOT water heater – cost 500 per month – so far this season – and it just got cold in nyc , the heat loss on the house is close to the boiler size – but there is just not enough baseboard to deliver all the British guys, - will have to fix that
the actual heat loss calc for the house is 81k and 20ft more baseboard than is there

my choices are:

-energy kinetics system2000 – easiest job by far – and probably lowest TOTAL system cost

-a slant-fin intrepid – with me doing pri/second/injection and indirect hot water with a tekmar 362 – will be the nicest job when done and have outdoor reset and boiler heat purge to indirect hot water heater, - heat exchanger not as good as the system2000 but has more control -outdoor reset - and easiest to get parts for

-or a monitor fcx – expensive/hard to get parts with the biggest problem being, what to legally do with the condensate – and not a very good fit for my mostly non condensing application

no: gas/propane is not an option at this location – though tankless electric is – If only she’d go for ceiling radiant – then I would power each level it with it’s own electric tankless – for heat and not water, the total cost of such a system over ten years, would blow away anything else avail to her

Ron Schroeder_3

Hi kal,

How about a Buderus G115 with indirect and Tekmar controls?

Ron

Kal Row

like the vie$$mann..

not enough more bang for the more bucks - and local parts avail - but it is a great boiler

Ron Schroeder_3

Hi Chris,

I agree with almost every thing that you say except for the cost savings. Maybe saving half compared to a real old sooted up boiler but not compared to a modern boiler, especially if it is not a low temperature radiant floor system. Remember, there is only about 8.6% latent heat in the exhaust to recover if you condense ALL of it. In the real world, you would be lucky to get even 10% better than something like a Buderus, Crown Freeport, Viessman or System 2000.

Ron

Ron Schroeder_3

Try a different supplier, at least for the boiler. There are other indirects that are more cost effective if you don't mind mixing brands.

I really haven't found a better bang for the buck boiler than Buderus. I use one in my own home and I have been accused of being tighter than two coats of paint. ;-)

Ron

Kal Row

i did make contact with buderus at ISH - so it's on the table...

and your other post is also very true - the bigest saving will come from a new and done right boiler room - and fixing the zones, as they are today the carpet is under the baseboard leaving only 1/4inch clearence for air or the covers are off completely leaving you with no convection - typical stuff you see in an old system

Chris_45

What needs to happen is the local companies that repair all other types of furnaces need to get up to speed on the FCX. It's out there and people do have it. It's only going to get more popular and why these companies are fighting it is bad situation in my opinion. For emergency situations there should be some other options available to people but right now there really isn't. So , for right now, for my customers, I am the one! It's a commitment and I have to make myself available. PERIOD!

Kal Row

wad'ya'all do with corosive condensate...

we have laws about what you can and cant put down the drain undiluted

Ron Schroeder_3

I know of at least one commercial installation that runs th consensate into a dry well filles with crushed limestone.

Ron

Kal Row

too much do for a residence - ...

need a simpler solution

i said that to the WM engineer at ISH - that there is a real market for a stand alone machine that will filter and maintain ph in a hydronic system as well as propor freeze point protection if needed - and the same unit sould also have a condensate pump and diluter/nutralizer

it should be designed so that you only need fill up with fresh chemicals at the start of the season

as more condensing and aluminum HX boilers go into service the demand for said product will only go up

jerry scharf_2

not too hard to handle condensate

Kal,

This has come up on the wall before.

You run the condensate into a pipe with a bunch of landscape marble chips in it. Feed the condensate in the bottom and take the treated water out the top. Make the pipe as big as you like, it's a space vs. refill factor.

I want to make mine pretty, and so I am going with a clear plastic pipe (also a suggestion from the wall discussion.)

jerry

Ken_8

In the northeast,

ALL # 2 fuel IS diesel!

The only difference is the dye marker.

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Ken_8

Heard nothing bad

Nothing whatsoever bad. It is my first choice for my new home in VT.

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Ken_8

Apples to bananas...

The water content of the FCX is a significant part of the savings factor - COMBINED with the condensing 9% pick-up.

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Ron Schroeder_2

I got my figure wrong for Latent Heat of oil condensate on my earlier post.

It's only 6.5% for oil. It's 7.99% for propane and 9.55% for natural gas.

Return water temperature is critical to allowing the Monitor boiler to operate in the condensing mode. The return temperature must be below 115 degrees to start condensing. Lowering the return temperature to 93 degrees will improve the boiler's efficiency by about 2.5%.

So to get the advantage of efficiency, a system with a condensing boiler needs a low temperature load like radiant floor or an agressive outdoor reset with oversized baseboard convectors.

Ron

Kal Row

it seem than in a basebord app..

the system 2000 is a better fit - it's sealed combustion but not condensing, it heats up rapidly and when the heat demand goes away, it purges the boiler's heat into the indirect hot water so nothing goes to waste - and the total system cost is half the buderus

Guy_5

diesel

Actually there is a difference between #2 and Diesel:
Diesel is low sulphur, and the quality control on the Diesel SHOULD be considerably better. Having a consistent fuel is critical in a condensing oil boiler.

Ron Schroeder_2

Hi kal,

I haven't priced both lately, but last time that I did, the Buderus was less money than System 2000.

Ron

Ron Schroeder_2

Hi Guy,

In many parts of the country, #2 fuel oil IS Diesel with dye added. Here on Long Island, most of the fuel bills are even marked "Dyed Diesel".

When my Aunt worked at a Standard Oil tank farm in the midwest, she said that both came from the same storage tank and dye was added as it was pumped into the tank trucks if it was to be sold without road tax.

Ron

Todd_9

Monitor Burners

Hi Chris, I have seen and worked on one of these, this unit is at a friends house. He was showing me the unit and we ended up cleaning it. There was no soot however there were sulfur deposits, I recomended he switch to kero or diesel but he hasn't done this yet.
This unit had the Heatwise Pioneer burner. Is this the only burner option for this unit? I personally like these but most service techs are not familiar with them. We had a call yesterday for someone that would like a service contract and if a riello were an option, we could do it.

Kal Row

complete boiler room system with IDHW tank, zones'n'all???

Unknown

Chris,
Chris,
Chris,

How can you "make yourself available. PERIOD!" ??? That can NEVER happen as we humans have limitatiions.

I'd REALLY like to have some of that magic.

Is there no one elce that can service an FCX in your area on an emergency basis? If not,,, what would they do?



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Ron Schroeder_3

G115-21 boiler, BF3 burner, and indirect vs. similar System 2000.

Unknown

Ron,


I look forward to your observations of this product. Please bring a digital camera and share:-)

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Unknown

Isn't the condensate a bit more nasty than

what we get from a gas fired boiler?

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jerry scharf_2

I still think it works fine

It may go through the marble a bit faster, but as long as it has time to sit in contact with the rock, everything should be fine.

jerry

Kal Row

interesting... why the riello over beckett or carlin...

isn't carlin supposed to be the quitest and beckett the easiest to get parts for?

also did the system include any controls or mixers, besides the idhw tank

also, where are you located - if anywhere near nyc - who was your supplier

thanks kal

Ron Schroeder_2

Hi kal,

My Supplier is National Combustion in Jamaica NY (888)656-2826. I like Riello for clean burn and lowest electric use. I have been looking into and testing some not on the market yet burners so my opinion might change. It just came with a Honeywell 8148 but it has had so many controls on it for test purposes that I have forgotten most of them.

Ron