New boiler now the system comes up to temp sloooooowly!

Bill Gillooly

I'm the homeowner...


I had a new Burnham boiler installed to replace a hot water (not steam) boiler that had rusted out. It was installed by my gas company as no plumber in the area had the time to do the job (they were all booked, more than a month in advance).

The only heat loss calculations that the installer made were to have me measure the total linear footage of baseboards.

Now, when it is cold (below 20°F) the system will only bring the house up to temperature at a rate of 1°F/hour. So, if I set the thermostat back from 68° to 60° and the thermostat (clock type) turns the heat on at 7:00AM, the house will not get up to temp until 3:00PM. I've taken to not setting the heat back at all, at night which is inneficient and frankly I like it chilly at night. I do want it warm during the day.

When I called the gas company, they said that 1° per hour was all I should expect and that I was setting the thermostat back too low. The system didn't work like this when the old boiler was working.

Notes:

Old Boiler: 116,000BTU/hr (input)
New Boiler: 96,000BTU/hr (input)

Also, when the new boiler was installed, an additional zone was added for a SuperStor indirect hot water heater. A priority controller for the indirect was installed at the same time.

The coming up-to-temp problems are happening all the time and do NOT seemed to be caused by a demand conflict between the house and the SuperStor.

Thanks, in advance,

Bill

Bill Gillooly

More Facts

When I measured the baseboard units, I reported back 115.5 linear feet. The gas co. rep didn't ask for anything else.

I've since discovered that 96' feet are the high output baseboard.

When the heat is ON, the fins in the baseboard units are cool enough so you can touch them with no discomfort (much cooler than hot water coming out of the faucett).

Bill

Dale

Indirect

If the indirect needing heat has no effect on the house side I would guess a flow problem. One thing you could check is the delta tee from the zones you feel are heating too slowly, is it 20 degrees? Also is the boiler firing constantly as it takes all day to heat the house? You may want to confirm heat loss with a PC program, the problem may be aquastat set too low, not enough pump, rad air openings closed ect.

Unknown

I agree

Either it's a flow or temperature problem . Do you know what the boiler aquastat is set at ? Do the return pipes to the boiler feel very hot to the touch ?

I just started up a boiler / baseboard system today . The heat was off since last week and we only got about 40 feet of baseboard heating up , but you could feel the difference within minutes .

kevin coppinger_4

get someone....

out there to look at this...if the gas co. installed it they should be out there toot sweet to see what the problem is...I know that if I have problems w/ a system I install I get out there the next day to get it staightened out...I also do a total heat loss, not a phone call methodand look at the job 1st....It is probably something simple....kpc

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Jed_2

THE Thermostat?

How many thermostats do you have in your home? Quick calc says you have 88,000 BTUH bsbd radiation. Is ALL of this controlled by one thermostat? How is it piped(zones, that is). Or is it all on one split loop, two piped? What is the model of the circulator? What size is the piping? New boiler 96,000BTUH input. What's the Net output rating? Bet it's less than 86K.

Mad Dog

Don't count out air as a problem

Were the zones bled properly? Any means of real air elimination on the new boiler....like a Spirovent? I've seen this situation several times...make sure all air is bled out before you do anything else. Mad Dog

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Jed_2

Spirovents

Spirovents are NOT necessary on baseboard systems. I've seen many baseboard systems with return circs, and NO air problems.

Mad Dog

Spirovents aren't necessary on ANY heating system, Jed..........

but I have never seen a better air elimination device. I've seen plenty of baseboard systems with NO vents at all not even taco quick vents....and they do work if you get all the air out initially. But, over time they can get airbound. Plenty of monoflow covector systems only have coin vents and work too! However, in this daY AND age of hydronic heating, there is no reason to NOT put on either an air scoop or a spirovent. Mad Dog

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Jed_2

Agreed

Mad Dog, I totally agree with you. I sell Spirovent and B&G EASB,Jr's. But this person's problem,IMHO, doesn't sound like an air problem. It sounds like a System problem.

Jed

Dan_18

Spirovents

Spirovents are great on baseboard loop systems they dont have to have a air elimiator as long as you install purge stations or other means of removing the air. To have them both is the best way to get rid of air problems. As far as the circ on the return that will work also but.......read Dans book pumping away it may change yor way of thinking it did for me.

Jed_2

I have, and do

But there are gazzillions of systems which have been working "just fine, thank you" on the "packaging principle" of system installation for years. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just doesn't get to THIS poster's problem.

Jed

Weezbo

do you have it zoned?

if you have it zoned shut down the zone that seems fine and open the one that dont....gravity without pumps? without zones? that is getting into some fine tuning abilities ....does it have a by pass? open it...what temp does the boiler gauge read? give us a hint here....:) not only would air fornicate up the system, tying two supplies into opposite headers will do wonders also...got a j peg ? with some info these guys do superman wheelies

Tony_8

my 2 cents

says it's the limit. I've seen countless new boilers set at 140F and never touched by the installer.

They always say, "Isn't that set at the factory ?"

Dan_18

limit

I think so too but gas guys installing a boiler? Wow that will never happen around here.

Tony_8

Never

say never.

Uni R

Questions

1. What is the maximum boiler temperature that you are seeing?


2. Do you notice a significant difference in temperatures from rad to rad in the same zone?


3. Does your system have an outdoor reset?

Weezbo

*~/:)

SirCaz

Limit

New boilers are being set at 140 degrees to help installers not cook radiate systems. If the max temp you are getting at boiler is 140 or so crank it up to a respectable 180. And the next time it might save you problems if you can wait for a professional plumber if you can.

ScottMP

First of all

I am going to throw my money on the aquastat not being high enough. Its sounds as if it got left down around 140/150 °.

That being said, if you look at the numbers, 19.5 feet of regular baseboard @ 550 output 17,025 and 96 feet of high output @ 900 which is 86,400 thats 103,425. Thats less than the rated 96,000 of the boiler.

I know most BB is 560 and most high output is 1000, but I like to derate it alittle. Also the HO dos'nt know if thats the IBR number or the input of the boiler. We don't know where he lives but can assume that it has'nt reached design temperature yet. So the real culprit is pointing at the water temp.

The real tragedy here is that a GAS CO. installed this boiler not a contractor, No one visited the house, No one did a true heat loss ( how did they know he did'nt have problems last year, maybe he thought that was normal ), He has problems and NO ONE is responding.

This is a sad story for our trade.

By the way Bill, seven hours to raise the temperature in your house is NOT normal.

Scott

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Mitch_4

Just a guess, but I ve seen it often enough

Was your system an old gravity type? Larger pipes like 2 or 3 inch? and if so, did the gas company change the pump to a new cartridge type that was included with the boiler? like a small TACO 007? was your old pump a big btrute?

if so, it will not move enough water through the distribution system, and the boiler will also be operating on limit. Do the burners turn on and off during a call for heat.

I have seen the local utility do this here too. boiler comes with a pump we have to use it. no concept of flow rates.

Keep us posted.

Mitch

ed wallace

lack of heat

its sad when the gas co. does a quote over the phone but not surprizing as for the temp setting being at 140 degrees from the factory and installer not checking it i have seen new steam boilers where the pressuretrol was set for 10 psi and installers have not set it for 1 1/2 psi

Jed_2

Just toround it out, Scott

I can't imagine the gas company not setting the aquastat, around here, the gas techs and the gas company at least know enough about hydronic systems to set the boiler limits right. My spec sheets on Suntemp baseboard (pretty typical), show 700a @ 580/ft/180°F AWT, and 800NST @ 800/ft/180°F AWT. That would be 88,110BTUH. Regardless, if you read Bill's Post carefully, he references THE thermostat. Doesn't that bring up questions in your mind?

Respectfully yours,

Jed

David_5

The numbers

Old boiler 116000 btu input at 80%eff = 92800 btu output.
New boiler 96000 btu input at 80% eff = 76800 btu output.
96' high output baseboard at 850'/ft = 81600 btu output.
19' regular baseboard at 550'/ft = 10450 btu output
Total output of baseboard = 92050 btu output, supplied by 76800 output boiler.
Assuming the above numbers are correct your old boiler was sized very close but still correct. Your new boiler cannot put out enough heat into your baseboard. If you could observe the boiler for 15 - 30 minutes of run time while it is heating the house not the indirect and let us know how long the burner stays on. We could have a better idea of what is going on. For instance if you observe the burner only runs 65% of the time during a call for heat, then there is a water flow problem or the aquastat may be set wrong. If the burner ran 100% of the time during a call for heat then that points to an under sized boiler.

David

Jed_2

Are the baseboard circuits

in series, split, parallel? What's the per/ft. output of the basboard @ foot 96?

Jed

ScottMP

Jed

The Thermostat ... meaning its all on one zone ?

Possible, but again, should'nt the installing company have LOOKED at the job ?

Also regardless of the output of the exsting baseboard, unless he's living in Alaska, he should'nt be near design temp and ANY boiler should be giving him heat You rate the Suntemp at 580 w/180°. After the first ten feet your not getting 180° so its best to derate it alittle.

Lets see if Bill Responds or have we been "had" again.

Merry Christmas to All

Scott

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Mad Dog

May very well be....

I 'm just throwing out a suggestion because I have seen enough systems that did that......poor but some heat. Mad Dog

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Jed_2

Scott

Keep in mind this is Average Water Temperature. My systems design takes this into consideration, because most of my Customers set the boiler at 190(Maine). That's based on the traditional "System" DT of 20°F. And as is customary, there most likely will be heating zones. I've played with Siggy's HDS enough, and experience tells me, I don't need to derate( and elongate) baseboard to meet the load as calculated, as long as I use the 180° bsbd rating. Never had a problem, but that's just me.

As for Bill's symtoms, who knows but Bill.

Jed.

ScottMP

Got it Jed

I use 180° so there's the difference. We all have our design choices. Mine is 180° since its a little quieter, and gives me alittle more play room if there is a problem.

The BIG question is why hav'nt we heard from Bill ????

Maybe somebody who just wanted to slam the Gas Co.

Of well, we had a good conversation and THATS what the wall is all about.

I hope you have a very Merry Christmas Jed.

Scott " Masshole" Milne

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Jed_2

Merry Christmas, Scott

You won't hear that from my mouth, but I've heard it before.

All the best, Jed