Internet scabs

Robert O'Connor_3

I went to look at a job today that the HO had purchased on the internet. He needed help "hooking it up" I was curious.
When I arrived I found a hand drawn circut layout with loops of "7/8" Durapex on 16" centers ranging from 250' to 780' in length. There were seven UP15-42F pumps, A pile of relays, and a few other outdated and cheesy components.
The house is about 4000' total. The HO paid $7k for this "Engeneered System" ouch. He then traded someone for a 300,000 cast iron boiler. I found an IPEX radiant heatloss that the engeneer had done before the project had begun that called for 87,000.
To top it off the distrobution was run in CPVC, and the Durapex was attached to the manifolds with hose clams.
This can't be good for our industry.

Weezbo

nor the happy homeowners...

as they wave bye Bye to thier dollars...frugal is one thing,..keeping the costs close to the vest thats wise, spending good money on good materials and lashing them up with hot glue hose clamps and lots of wire just dont add up in the long run...the thing is that alot of people know no better and get a sence of satisfaction of having done some work on thier own,they have no real sence on how its supposed to look or work, sometimes they get lucky ...however with radiant heat lucky is difficult to tabulate.all i can say is good luck.

Dale

Act Quick

If they donate all this junk to the rawhide boy's ranch before the first of the year they can claim average retail on this years taxes.

Robert O'Connor_3

Yout nailed it there. People with little or no experiance have no concept of hoe systems work. A word to the wise home owner, find a qualified professional. I don't do my own dental work.

Firedragon_4

It's going to get much worse

before..........

A lack of qualified tradespeople and wholesalers willing to sell to survive will continue to see this get much worse, FACT!

Until all states have licensed tradespeople and protect the public safety by enforcing the conduct of sales of trade-goods you'll see a lot more work and that at least is the up-side.

I am thinking about having my favorite plumber perform my next colonoscopy, NOT!

Dean_7

homeowners

Sadly Weezbo's right. One of my neighbors tried to do something like this and came over asking for help. I gave him the name of the professional who installed my boiler.

Unknown

It's going the other way, man. The internet is truly starting to change everything. However, don't gripe over lost work or what have you, the old saying "let the buyer beware" is now even more true than ever; a fellow just blew thousands of dollars on an overpriced pile of crap system. Who really lost there? If you lose a job for the kind of fellow that will drop thousands of dollars on a "deal" without researching it just because the bottom line is low, is it the kind of reasonable client you'd like to work with anyway, or is it the kind of client that will hassle you over every penny?

I prefer the clients I get. The kind that hassle me over design details, question my assumptions, and are interesting in really knowing what they are getting. The bottom feeders can have the rest, they are more headache than they are worth anyway. That's doesn't apply to everyone who picks a wrong path of course, but it's true enough that I don't lose any sleep over lowballers. We explain every part of our quotes in detail, and if that doesn't convince the client, then either we failed to explain properly, they got a better deal, or trust just wasn't established... so be it.

I do have a suggestion though, start thinking of ways to meet your bottom lines with less and less part margins. It may not happen tomorrow, but as internet usage continues to grow and mature, the maximum part margin available out there is going to be wholesale plus shipping someday, nothing is going to stop that, and nothing *should*. Efficient supply lines help everyone (except middlemen). Just squint at it differently and make sure you're making the labor rate you need to make to provide quality service when that time comes.

Really, if you're a tradesman and not a wholesaler, it shouldn't make any difference. You're getting paid to do what you do, not to shuffle parts around, right?

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Jed_2

So, Rob

You're saying Wholesalers' days are numbered?

Unknown

I think the supply chain is basically going to whittle down to one or two jumps, max, manufacturer to end user, as opposed to the 3 or 4 jumps we have now. Eventually. With connectivity a given, I don't see how competition will allow for anything else in the not too distant future. not tomorrow of course, but I think what we're seeing now is just the tip of the iceberg.

information is powerful stuff. Then again, I might be biased, as half of our clients find us on the web, and we're not all that easy to find, so the ones that find us are the most savvy, generally. Maybe there will always be a large majority of people who just won't bother to research and will just take what is offerred without questioning; I just don't see those people very often.

Just theories anyway. I'm a bit compulsive about speculating about the future!

I guess the big question is, how much value is added by having the added jumps and markups in the supply chain? Ten years ago, more than now, certainly, just finding what you wanted other than through local channels would have been nearly impossible. But in an age where you can find parts at wholesale all the time, where is the added value?

I would speculate the added value is the time, ability and knowledge of the end professional more than his or her ability to order, pick up and deliver parts. And that over time, pricing will have to reflect this more and more accurately. Such is the nature of knowledge, education and information; getting closer to the "truth" of a given thing (hopefully, at least!)

but I can talk my way around anything... I've been wrong many times in this world and I'm sure I will be again. Interesting to think about at least.

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Jed_2

Rob: So when will

"I would speculate the added value is the time, ability and knowledge of the end professional more than his or her ability to order, pick up and deliver parts. And that over time, pricing will have to reflect this more and more accurately. Such is the nature of knowledge, education and information; getting closer to the "truth" of a given thing (hopefully, at least!)"

--- the "end professional" be the "capable standard" to which all heating system installations are judged?

Jed

Unknown

please clarify your point?

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Weezbo

Dean...That is sadly the same proffessional he thought ...

was too high in his bid / proposal. if i go to a mechanic and he wants 75$ an hour flat rates stuff and i say i would like new break pads and bearings replaced in the front he knows not to even think of charing me to change the bearings and then change the break pads...however there are some people who would not understand that...its too Deep for them...so i suppose some people have been taken advantage of somewhere along the line, realized it ,and now figure everyone (not them_)are a buncha crooks....now if i go over to my race car buddy and say i want to pull the front clip snatch out the motor and trannsmission and lash this balanced and blue printed notor and transmission back in he says well thats about elebenteen hundred i roll it around think well that sounds pretty close and go for it ...now he might yank the hood chain the long block lose the motor mounts and acessories and drag it up and out .. because he thinks he can make better time at it.ok fine dont trust me...ive done this sorta stuff myself maybe hed a learned something buh no matter,hes happy with the way hes in and out and everythings looking good and goes at a turn of a key when i get back..so elebenteen hundred is reasonable to me. it might not be to every one however i can "live withit" and hes happy.....so the point is, it may be better when people spend a few dollars to read a book or two before parting with thier dollars.and not stand thier balking at some number they dont understand. if they were doing this kind of work they Would understand it.

Jed_2

The point is

very few heating professionals have the ability, or are willing to learn, what it takes to be able to "narrow the margin" without the intermediate guidance and support.

Jed

Unknown

I'm not saying they should narrow the margin at all. I'm saying ultimately their margin will probably be based on their value added service, not part supply.

If you know enough to know what to charge for parts and labor, you know enough what you'd need to charge for just labor to make that money, right?

If not, you'll go out of business, just like anyone who doesn't know what to charge for their work or services. But that's not any different in either scenario.

am I missing something?

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