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Diesel Generator and radiant floor
Kevin_21
Member Posts: 10
Hi all I'll start by introducing myself. I,m new to this forum, been a lurker but not a poster. My name is Kevin I,m a plumbing and heating contractor in British Columbia. The reason I have decided to post is I have a customer building off the electrical grid and he posed the question can we run a heating system off his water cooled genset. As I am also building a recreational home off the grid. I find this to be a very interesting idea. I remember Kohler was once designing a system such as this but did a search and could not find anything. So has anybody ever done this, considered it or heard of anyone else doing it.
Thanks Kevin
Thanks Kevin
0
Comments
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oh yes indeed....
did not get the chance to do the work however it was for 150 man camp off two 250 kw diesil 3Phase generators...i thought it through and dont see a problem other than you need to be care ful of too low a temp or your internal components of the power plant may cost you signifigantly...its a maint...oil twice a day...proper 500 hr maint keeping a sharp eye on maintaining proper controll of return temps....for some information on larger systems say 2000 man camps Shlumber Jay's And Anglo Camps have big time wheeler dealers who engineer their systems to the joule. P.S. am thinking of going to see my mom in Bermuda in about a month,to spin in some radiant Space conditioning and do some work on the potable i hope to get some of my friends down at B.A.C. to purchase some wirsbo for me so i dont have to drag it "with"......so, if your time schedule is some thing flexible maybe i can go U.K. for a visit...i live in Alaska so i am not terribly concerned about working in the cold.maybe ....i might have some time to go visit some of my Irish buddies in county Cork,...the Architectural blue prints i drew up for them passed the ministry and all is well...0 -
Weezy...
The man said Britsh Columbia, not Britain...
Slowly back AWAY from the coffee pot:-)
Welcome Kevin! Nothing is imposssible. It's just a matter of cost. If your client has the money to live off line, then I presume he has the money to make it work. As it pertains to using a closed combustion engine to heat a home, I woould assume that the heat loss of the dwelling would equal the heat output of the genset. If not, you will need to incorporate some means of thermal storage. ANother issue would be the operating temperatures. IF the diesel engine puts out water at 140 degrees F, then the distribution system will need to be compatible with low temperature operation.
A person who frequents this site (Noel Kelly) is quite well versed on this subject, and in fact works for a company that is developing a cogen system. Hopefuly he will see this and respond.
Happy Holidays to our neighbors to the North, including Weezbo:-)
ME0 -
Kevin,
Might I suggest you look and search in the co-generation area on the web.
You also might check into articles from Brookhaven National Labs. They were working on a few different types and fuels for doing just what you describe. I saw a Diesel AND a jet engine version of them last summer on the Oil Tech Talk Trip to Brookhaven. They fired up the Jet version, and it wasn't nearly as noisy as I thought it would be.
The 2 units were about the size of a couple of small commercial refrigeators tied together. I can't remeember the outputs and so-forth but it looked like something for a small development in an Off Grid situation. Chris0 -
Excellent observation!
Wow!Thanks MArk, i only had a few pots of coffee today,nothing unusually mind numbing...:) however British Clomubia has fine coffee .my Mom called to wish me a Merry Christmas from Bermuda while reading the post,....its nearly 40 below around here today...there its like 70 +F i have my hat so i dont think my brains freezin up *~/:) it must be these duplex glasses they are titanium alloy and are sucking all the electrons outta my brain cell
))i am in deed in a abnormally happy mood today. must be this Day Off thing thats happening in my life. 0 -
Yeah, like...
Star Bucks!! You crack me up.
Happy Holidays from Denver, Colorado.
ME0 -
two cents...
Hello: I'm finishing up an off grid home and have a back up generator. I've tied a heat exchanger to its exhaust to capture that heat and put it into storage. Primary heat (and electricity) is solar, so the generator's heat goes into a solar tank. The house uses a separate loop for radiant in the walls.
The exhaust gasses come out of the heat exchanger as condensation and it's run in PVC conduit. So, this is different than you describe, but it works just fine. Sounds like you need some storage so you can control heat input to the house.
Yours, Larry0 -
generators purpose?
do they plan to run the generator all the time? or is it going to be used to charge batteries and such?
heating systems like to run all the time when its cold, thats the only problem I could see. I also live off the grid and my little 2.5kw gen uses 1 gallon every two hours(gasoline). so I'm curious what will be its purpose?
I use it for power tools only.
jim
propane lights and frigs work good.0 -
maybe he has a small Lister..
and big house with electric heavily distributed on the site or maybe he likes the idea of powering the lights for the run way...what you say is smart though ...LP is good for lights and fridge and can use for warm water..how ever delivery might be the hassel off grid.and oil maybe is easier to deal with (less of a safety issue)....... 0 -
Lp vs Diesel
I think you'd use more diesel than LP, engines aren't that efficient. then you still have a delivery problem! how about a LP generator, if they have deeper pockets than mine!
solar or wind for that matter! an outdoor wood burner sounds in order here. hook the pump to the car battery.
goto
www.otherpower.com
I think thats right.0 -
It all depends, no?
Mum's house in Maine runs on propane. The heating system, the stove, even the genset run off it.
The biggest benefit of Propane in this application? You can hide the tank 15' away from the house, underground, and sleep well at night. No fear of spillage (she lives off wellwater), no gelling, etc. Plus, a propane genset is inexpensive to buy and even more inexpensive to maintain.
However, there is no doubt that oil would have been a more economical fuel in ME. Whenever we change the heating system, we may revisit the fuel source decision for the heating system.0 -
genset heating-co gen
there was a company in hopkinton mass ,intelligen, that made neat units 2 cyl lister diesels attached to a 5kw generator, i have one im putting back together someone dismantled it,i replaced it with a slant-fin oil boiler to heat the house with radiant -pex in 1 1/2" concrete. the genset did fine for 3 years but it wasnt serviced annually.now its apart but will be back in service soon,it can make your electric meter spin backwards,and only worked if the was power,a power failure would shut this unit down,safety factor. unfortunaly the co, closed they were great units maybe theres hope someone will start making these again.........happy holidays....mike0 -
Hi Mark. As you know I worked for Inteligen back in the good old 90's. When I left them they were in the process of having the engines converted to natural gas - too many associated problems with the diesel. The hx mounted on the exhaust manifold was a shell and tube with 1/4" tubes! Fouling was a major issue. Apart from that there was the problem of dealing with the exhaust. The idea was great and before its time but the passing years have brought new and better technologies. Some are improvements on a theme such as IC. Others are a revisiting of older technologies such as sterling engines and rankine cycle engines. And then there are futuristic technologies such as fuel cells.
The company I currently work for - Climate Energy - are developing a residential based cogen system that will not just run your meter backwards but provide backup power in the event of a blackout. We are of the mind that the technology supports the concept so whatever gets it done in the most favorable fashion is the way to go. While we are developing our own rankine based steam expander, we constantly investigate and review alternate technologies. I am hopeful that I will be in a position to enlighten you further in the coming year.
As for Kevin's questions regarding Kohler, I believe he may be referring to a project funded by the Gas Institute back in the 80's. It is my understanding that the finished product was unrealistic in terms of cost and the project was cancelled.
As for using a diesel gen for continuous off grid generation - I would advise against it. The obstacle faced by Intelligen's founders was finding an engine capable of at least 45,000 hours of operation. Gen-sets are not set up for this. And then there is the issue of noise and emissions. In all honesty, the essence of a successful residential cogeneration system is the application of technology that can withstand the rigors of our demanding heating seasons. Hope this helps.
Noel Kelly0 -
Interesting Points!
Having worked on fuel cells from a costing perspective, I doubt we'll see widespread adoption of anything in FCs other than SOFC's anytime soon. That is, unless Platinum, Chromium, and Nickel become more plentiful than iron, and cheaper too.
I still have my doubts re: the price competitiveness of a residential cogen system, but I am happy to keep an open mind.
For one, folks wouldn't be installing them to thumb their noses at their energy providers, because in many markets it is no longer possible to get fuel from different providers anymore... the "transportation" companies figured that one out a long time ago and now frequently monopolize the distribution of electricity and natural gas.
Moreover, there have to be some pretty egregious fuel price differences out there before a co-gen system starts to pay for itself in a baseline application.
I fear that many of these novel concepts (microturbines, rankine systems, et al.) will simply end up competing for the same 50-60k annual US genset market that has existed since time began. Not a bad market mind you, but not a market that supports the valuations of plug-power, et. al.
BTW, the Australian outback is powered almost exclusively by Diesel gen-sets. I have yet to understand why, in a country that gets as much sun as the Ozzies do, they still rely on wagon trains hauling Diesel over hundreds of miles when a PV system combined with a big bank of batteries should do the same job cheaper... don't even get me started on the usage of propane-fired outdoor water heaters instead of solar-heated system... Must be the installed cost vs. lifecycle cost at work here...0 -
re:
I'm not as qualified as these guys, so take my comnets with a grain of salt.
i have long been interested in this concept and have a few thoughts
if you could find a small liquid cooled diesel, I think it would be amazing. Diesel engines are almost perfectly efficient, they are however, not very efficient at making rotational torque. A heat exchanger on the radiator would seem to be the way to go, the exhaust being secondary. Think marine, with water cooled exhaust manifolds. You could also generate electric heat as a variable load source so that your 'boiler' would be infinitely variable output. More heat load, more electric elements come on line, the engine itself generates more heat through the cooling system.....the problem is, in order to be efficeintn you want like a 1 liter liquid cooled diesel, which I've never seen. Anything bigger would create enough heat at idle to suffice, thus would be wasteful.
Diesels in big rigs go 500k miles[convert to hours 60mph is one mile per minute] routinely, and I imagine they would go much further in a nice climate controlled install, and not hauling a trailer around, but it would seem lifespan would be an issue. If you did some electrical storage so it didn't run 24/7, that would seem to extend the life quite a bit. IF you light the house with LED's you need about 5 amps for the whole house anyway....... so maybe you could run it off a solar panel and forget the whole diesel thing............0 -
Hi Kevin,
I assume that he already has the genset and wants to make the maximum use of it. You could do a primary/secondary loop with both the genset and a boiler in the loop. You would probably need a variable speed pump in the genset loop to control the genset temperature. A storage tank would probably also be needed. You should still have the radiator as a dump load for when there is excess heat from the genset.
Go with Superinsulation in the house. My current preferance is to use TJI or similar wood I-beams as wall studs with blown in cellulose insulation. Add solar and/or wind for primary electricity and use the genset as secondary power.
A number of years ago, I did something similar with a Kubota diesel turning the compressor of a geothermal heat pump and a generator. Heat came from both the heat pump and the diesel's water jacket.
Ron0 -
We did one
This Amish guy called and wondered if I could get heat off his 30KW genset. Sounded interesting so I said sure. He was running a 3,500 sq ft radiant floor so water temps were attainable.
I tapped into the discharge line from the engine to the radiator in Pri/Sec fashion and used an immersion type aquastat to trigger the circulator when the water was over 140. The secondary side was run through a 100' coil of 3/4" soft copper which was submerged in a 500 gallon tank of water. That was as far as I took the job. He ran the piping directly off the tank out to the floor. I ran into him last year and he said it worked well. Water temps in the tank would hit 155-160 during periods of no heat demand from the floor and the big tank gave him a nice thermal "battery" to draw from.0 -
> This Amish guy called and wondered if I could get
> heat off his 30KW genset.
Amish with a genset??? You sure he wasn't Mennonite?
Ron0 -
Genetaor/heat or PAH units (poer and haet)
> Wow!Thanks MArk, i only had a few pots of coffee
> today,nothing unusually mind numbing...:) however
> British Clomubia has fine coffee .my Mom called
> to wish me a Merry Christmas from Bermuda while
> reading the post,....its nearly 40 below around
> here today...there its like 70 +F i have my hat
> so i dont think my brains freezin up *~/:) it
> must be these duplex glasses they are titanium
> alloy and are sucking all the electrons outta my
> brain cell))i am in deed in a abnormally happy
> mood today. must be this Day Off thing thats
> happening in my life.
0 -
PAH (Power and Heat)
Mark,
Your very correct about the cost factors yet the technology is out there and cost effective combination systems already exist.
In the mid seventies I rented an apartment at a complex east of Madison ,WI.This place had a central natural gas fired electrical generator capturing waste heat for domestic water and space heating.While it took care of the domestic needs it was too hard to predict heat loads with the wide temperature variations we endure here in Wisconsin.
As with all projects cost is a factor and selling long range savings over immediate budget concerns is always a hard sell.
The answer is true Dept. of Energy incentives to implement and refine these sort of concepts. The current administration has done little or nothing to promote conservation. Federal monies could be better spent on improved generation,conservation and innovative systems if we could get them to give tax breaks or credits for these type of systems.
The current regulatory system for new power plants are being challenged with environmental groups etc. that has delayed many projects.
The 80s fuel crunch that resulted in wind,solar;tidal and other non fossil generating are most certainly going to resurface and gain popularity.
MP19690 -
Good to hear from you Noel..
As always, I look forward to your future presentation.
Happiest of Holidays to you and yours
ME0 -
Try this link......... very well thought out system.
http://www.marathonengine.com/cogeneration.html
I have met the guys who are building this thing. They tell me it should be available soon. It takes any demand, either for heat or for power and will give efficiencies of 90+
jw0 -
Cute system....
... a single-cylinder, 270 cc recip with some neat power electronics and a purpose-made generator. I wonder what they retail for... and how many are being sold. As described, the system should be reasonably sturdy.
However, the 2-4kW output will only support smaller homes or homes that also have other means of conserving and generating heat. The combined efficiency is impressive and the only hard issue I can think of is permitting the thing all over the US.
It would be interesting to note how the gas company would sign you up for a rate plan considering that you're not just heating the house with the thing but may be competing with them on the power grid by putting excess energy into the grid whenever the system is delivering heat to the home.0 -
Competition..........
In many areas the electric power utility is different company than the gas.
This unit is smart enough to intertie with the utility so that it is the base power and any power over and above that generated on site is bought from the utility. In heat mode, excess is sold back to the grid. FedLaw stipulates tha the utility must buy the power, just does not specify how much they have to pay.0 -
Duh!
You know, since we did this project, I've been calling the contraption in his shed a generator. Your comment got me to thinking......... All I ever noticed on the back of the diesel was a 5 groove pulley about 16" in diameter. There was a sticker on the radiator housing that said 30KW. It was probably there from the former use of the engine. Duh! again.0 -
The Feds can mandate all sorts of things...
...but at the end of the day, the local utility still gets to dictate the conditions under which they intertie with localized generation, IIRC. Needless to say, should such heat and power units ever become a threat to their business model, they'll bite back.0 -
in mass, i believe the electric co has to pay you retail rates,up to 30,000 watts after that you are a commercial operation and are paid whoelsale rates.30,000 watts should be enough for most homes to make it worthwhile...good luck and happy new year to all the wallies...........0 -
I presume...
...you mean Watt-hours, not watts, correct?
Under the conditions you describe, a small genset like the Marathon engine becomes somewhat interesting. It is doubtful that most homes would have much excess energy if net metering is used to determine the 30kWh threshold.
In Arlington, MA, we pay about $0.16/kWh and $1.5/therm for natural gas. Our current household consumes about 200kWh and 180 therms of gas per month in the wintertime... Can someone whip up a NPV calc to show how an investment in the Marathon Engine will pay off?0
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