popping safety switch on Honeywell 8184 Protectorelay

Brrian

I've got a Hydrotherm PB200 boiler / Beckett oil burner with an integrated Honeywell 8184 control. The 8184 is wired to a Honeywell 8148 hydronic relay that has both the thermostat and taco circulator pump connected to it (single zone system). When the thermostat calls for heat, the 8148 activates the 8184/burner and the circulator so everything get warm.

That’s the theory anyway. My problem is that quite frequently, when the thermostat calls for heat and the 8184 is activated, the red safety switch on the 8184 pops up. Now, I realize that there are some really good reasons for that button to pop up, but it pops up before the burner motor has a chance to even spin up, much less start a flame. So, the reasons I can fathom don’t apply (the eye seeing no flame for instance).

I’ve gone through the manuals to make sure that everything is connected as it should be and not only does it look right, it’s exactly as the manual describes it should be for a 8148/8184 combination (not surprising really since it is the factory wiring job).

Does anybody know why this might be happening?

I’d really love to not have to get out bed at 3:00 in the morning and stumble down two flights of stairs in order to reset that switch every few days.

Brian

Firedragon_4

You're playing with

fire and electricity, call a service tech and get it looked at before you have no heat on Christmas Eve.

Weezbo

its probably a relay....

however these controls arent like they used to be so replacing parts in the controller is out of the question. and as there are also other probablities better to have someone who knows what to look for ,come by with some tools and make certain its corrected propely the first time. Melly Christmas an Habby new years.

brian_23

nobody is playing here

I'm pretty knowledgeable about this. Not only have I been reading this site for two years, I did the installation - including the heat loss estimate, removal of the old boiler, bringing in the new one, all the (new) plumbing, all the electric service, and the flue work (although I had a local chimney place tell me what to do since they couldn't get to it before it would have gotten very cold) - all done according to code and inspected. Also, I've replaced almost all of the other plumbing and wiring in the rest of the house to boot. And I'm an engineer (mentioned last since its the least important).

That said, I don't pretend to understand everything, so I have come to the real experts for guidance.

Most of the time the control works just fine. It also responds appropriately when I run through all the checkout and troubleshooting procedures spelled out in the installation manual. It passes the "simulated flame failure", the "simulated ignition failure", and the "simulated power failure" tests called out in the "System Checkout" section of the install manual and passed the "check oil primary relay" and "check CAD cell" tests called out in the "troubleshooting and maintenance" section. I'm inches away from simply replacing it with an identical unit, but since I don't want to do that needlessly, I'm asking "The Wall".

Anything that deviates from normal gets me concerned when it comes to something burning inside the house, but the way it fails seems to fall on the safer side since it pops the moment power is applied and then operates normally once reset. So, I’ve let it run while I find out if there is anything I’ve overlooked.

BTW – I’ve looked at quite a few boiler installations in my area while engrossed in this project and it’s amazing how the vast majority of them deviate from the best-practices I’ve learned reading this site and others. I’ve saw one boiler so oversized that its piping system could only move half of its heat generating ability (I didn’t get a chance to calculate the total size of its rads). That coupled with a simplistic control system (for a 4 zone system) meant that the boiler was at 180 degrees almost all the time. Talk about inefficient! (It would have been unsafe as well, but it had two high limit aquastats)

Next year’s project is to replace my control system with an outdoor reset for efficiency and one or two zones for DHW and to solve a cold spot issue (I went with the factory controls when I installed the system and the kitchen’s radiator situation appears to be incompatible with the current piping – it was wrong before I started the replacement project, but I had to limit this years part of the project somewhere). I’m sure I’ll have another question or two for the wall then.

Thanks for your help.

Brian

PS. If you guys want to see pictures I can post a couple.

brian_23

I need to get someone out to tune the newly installed system (since I definitely don't have the expertise or the tools for that), but getting someone to even return a phone call in this area is tough enough. My oil delivery company got out of the service business a couple years ago and the service departments of other companies only service their own delivery customers. I could switch delivery companies since the prices are all about the same, but I like our delivery company and I don’t like being forced to switch.

I’m still working on getting an independent, but since it’ll be awhile before I can get someone out to do the tuning, I wanted to address this control issue quickly.

If you can give me a quick list of “other probabilities” to investigate, that’d be most helpful.

Thanks,


Brian

Weezbo

ok......

you wont belive this one.... shut the power off.take the cover off the control... turn the power back on... did the"problem " Go Away?

Unknown

Sure , I'd like to see

a few pics of your install Brian . Wish I could help with your intermittent problem , but it's hard to diagnose without actually being there . Did you see the relay trip firsthand ?

Bill Nye_2

Brian,

Brian, do you have a power venter? Is it a 15 second trial for ignition? Do you have a delayed oil valve?

I have seen cases where the power vent draft proving circuit and the oil valve eat up all of the trial for ignition time .

It must be a wiring thing although you say it is correct? Can only guess from here. Or, the control , the 8184 could be bad. Can you "borrow" one off of something to see?

Weezbo

the reason for that is....

the clearances are close tolerance that black paddel looking thing is really close to the cover, sometimes in ones overexhuberance to get on down the road the cover gets place on there crooked,that can cause buzzing sounds and or physical attention to the malfunction by an operator(live body).sometimes the cover is Squeezed too tight trying to get it held in place while tightening a screw.... Just read Bill Nyes posted reply, he also makes another good point....the setting on the becket gets disfunctional if the lag isnt jiving with the the proving switch...

brian_23

yes I did

Brrian

15 second trial for ignition (although the button pops up within the first second).

No ventor, no powered oil valve.

Control was wired at the boiler manufacturer, but I checked the wiring anyway and its as the manual (and logic) says it should be.

It only fails to start some of the time, but its frequent enough that its a cause for concern and its annoying (three AM trips to the basement to get the heat going are no fun).

I've taken the cover off the 8184 and carefully replaced it so as not to bind the relay. Now we'll let it run for a while and see if it trips.

Photos will have to wait a couple days, but I'll get them posted soon.

Brian

soot_seeker_2

get another 8184 for testing / back-up

brand new 8184's are available on ebay almost all the time (like right now) for about $25. why pull your hair out? just get another one for test & if that doesn't solve it, just keep it around as a spare.

ss

Eric_19

You said that it "poped" before the motor started, if this is a earlier split phase motor like they used to use it is quite likely a bad start switch in the motor a problem that is very common, change it to a newer PSC type motor and it should go away.

Steve Eayrs

Brian,


Does this go off on reset, right after you have tried to reset it once already? You may think its a stupid question, but these things need to cool off for a couple minites, before you try to start it again, or it will possibly popp off agian before you can even get it fired.
We do rarely run into some intermitant problems on these, and will just go ahead and replace them, rather than beat our heads against the wall (no pun intended) and move on to something we can get paid to do.

Steve

Paul Mitchell_2

Contrrol

the T T terminals, if it has them should be jumped. Power from 8148 B1 terminal to the black on 8184. Orange should go to burner motor and trans. white is neutral. If all is correct it is pretty cut and dry....bad 8184.

Brrian

alas, its a brand new Taco 007 pump and motor

Brrian

No, when it pops it’s been off for some time. When I go down push restart, it always starts and runs a complete cycle.

I'm going to take your suggestion and just replace it. The only reason I asked in the first place was in case there was something I overlooked. My first thought is always to assume that new equipment works and that I'm using it incorrectly, especially when the technology is new to me. But as you point out that's not always the case.

Thank you all for taking the time to help me out. I've been very impressed with the depth of experience on this site and with the willingness of many of you to take the time to help.

Brian

Weezbo

spin these in in our sleep

Paul Mitchell_2

Yea Man..