I can't figure out how to size my boiler

lost in steam

sorry if i am missing it somewhere on this site, but i can't seem to find it.

currently, i have 4 radiators in the house. 2 down stairs and 2 upstairs. they are sizes:

down 1 - 32" long x 9.5" wide x 26" high x 13 sections

down 2 - 17" long x 9" wide x 38" high x 7 sections

up 1 - 14.5" long, 7" wide, 39" high x 6 sections

up 2 - 14.5" long, 9" wide, 38" high x 6 sections


can anyone tell me what boiler size i need? the one i got was a Burnham PV85SC, and I think it may be too big. the guy already tried going down a nozzle size to see if that would help. is my boiler too big? he said he would check, but i thought i would get a second opinion.......

gehring_3

gehring_3

Need to know how many tubes (vertical col.) are in each "section" of the rads. i.e. 2 or 3 or 4 ? Need that too. Also, if you can post some pictures I'm sure someone here can tell you the EDR of the rads.

lost in steam

here they are

i hope they come out ok.

they should be in the same order i listed them. thanks for any help you can provide!

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Down 1 = 52 sq.ft. EDR

Down 2 = 26¼ sq.ft. EDR

Up 1 = 24 sq.ft. EDR

Up 2 = 30 sq.ft. EDR

Total EDR = 132¼ sq.ft.

Output of radiation (based on 240 btu/hr per sq.ft. EDR) = 31,740

Am not a steam man but do know that a "pickup factor" is added for the piping in the system--believe it's around 15% but know it varies with the system and its' insulation.

So 31,740 + 15% = 36,510 btu/hr

Not sure if any steam boiler is made that small.

Is some of the original radiation in the house missing? If so, I'd really try to get replacements.

lost in steam

thanks!

thanks!

yes, some of them are missing and i may need to replace them. i have two of them in the basement that could be put back in. i can get those measurements and see if that would help or not.

Unknown

Can you take a pic

of the boiler too ? And maybe the surrounding piping ? I'm not familiar with the Burnham oil boiler you mentioned . Is this a new boiler ?

Some steam boilers can be downfired to drop the output , but if Mike's number's are right , I don't know of any oil steam boiler with that small of an output . Are you having problems with the steam system as it's working now ?

lost in steam

yes

i have those pictures at home. it is a standard burnham boiler - a V8 model. it appears it is rated for 512 (i think) which is like 4 times what was calculated. i may have been given this one b/c it was supposed to have a domestic hot water coil in it, which unfortunately it doesn't. there were 3 rads removed from the original system. my oil guy seems to think he can bring it down, but i wonder if that kills my energy efficency. obviously, the contractor is going to do anything he can to not replace the boiler.

i will post pics tonight if you can help!!!

lost in steam

boiler pics

here they are.

my main problem now is it sounds like my system is taking off like a rocket ship. big guts of air/steam out of the vents. we have the pressuretrol down to like .5 or 1.75 or so, and he reduced the nozzle. doesn't help completely.

anyway, thanks for the help.

Unknown

It's piped wrong

Look in the installation manual, it shows how to cure this.

Unknown

WOW

Is that a 5 section Burnham ? Heating only 4 mid sized rads ? I'm very sorry , but downfiring this boiler is not going to help . It's not just oversized , it's extremely oversized .

The contractor also piped the boiler header very wrong . He has the 2 tappings pushing steam toward each other , a no no . And there is no equalizing pipe , which is very important . I've included a pic of a Burnham V84 steam boiler we installed for reference .

All of these things will add up to a really noisy boiler and fuel bills much , much higher than you should be paying . I'm sorry there is no easy remedy for this install .

lost in steam

oh boy

ron:

what if 2 more mid size rads are added? would it make any difference at all? or am i looking to have to have them re-install this puppy (i.e, a smaller one).

i am getting heat, it is just very loud, meaning a lot of rushing air, and it seems to short cycle.

Unknown

I hate to say it

but , no , it really wont make much of a difference . Going by Mike T.s calculations , you might pick up 60 or so more sq. ft. EDR . with the 2 rads . Which would bring you in the 200 range . A 3 section Burnham is at 283 . The 5 section you have is just way too big .

My suggestion is to talk to the contractor and explain that he installed the wrong size boiler and you want the right size . And you also want the boiler piped by the manufacturer's specs . I hope he is willing to correct the problems .

Ron

lost in steam

hmmm

ok, i'll have to study your picture to find out what went wrong. i'm not sure the termonology of what is missing. i thought it was the "hartford loop" b/c you have a little dip in it. but the installation manual shows it straight across like i have it. we'll see, but i may have no choice but to go smaller. what is the worst that will happen if i stay with the big one? a waste of energy?????

Steamhead

Updated ratings

Down 1 is a 5-large-tube radiator, 3.5 square feet per section, 45.5 total square feet EDR.

Down 2 is a 3-column, 5 square feet per section, 35 square feet.

Up 1 looks like a 2-column, 4 square feet per section, 36 square feet.

Up 2 is a 3-column, again 5 square feet per section, 30 square feet.

Total 146.5 square feet or 35,160 BTU per hour. Pickup factor is figured into the boiler's Net rating. That V-85 is way too big. They should have installed a V-83 with a rating of 283 square feet, which might be OK if you re-installed the missing radiators (what are their sizes, and can you post pics?). Or it could be downfired slightly.

The piping job is also completely wrong, as has already been posted. Ron and Noel, two of the best in the business, are right- this is a tear-it-out-and-start-over situation, which you should not have to pay for.



To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Looking again

I can't make it out too clear , but you may have an equalizing pipe in there . It is definitely not in the most optimal place though . The installation manual shows the Hartford Loop dropping immediately down with a T-Y fitting , we just use a tee .

I've never dealt with a new steam system so oversized , but in the past we increased the boiler header size as big as we could to slow down the steam velocity . We've had mixed results . The fuel bill will be one of the downsides of keeping the system as is .

Steamhead

That's the \"header\"

Ron used a "drop header" on his, like Noel and I do. It's easier to install and helps make great steam.

The Hartford Loop is where the return line jumps up from near the floor to connect with the piping around the boiler. It's supposed to connect to a pipe called the "equalizer", whose job is to equalize the pressure between the steam and return sides of the boiler. But I can't tell from your pics where that pipe comes from, so I don't know if it's an equalizer or not.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

lost in steam

more questions and pictures

thanks for all the help guys. i am attaching several pictures, the first 5 are more of my pipes (i labeled the pics wrong, not rad pipes but furnace pipes). this is for those that wanted a better view of my install. but i see what you are saying about how it is incorrect--he has the two coming together than up, and it shouldn't be that way.

the 6th is of the new rad i want to put in--it is about 18" x 18" x 7". rough guess.

the last 2 are of my apartment furnace, which was the same as i had (this is a duplex) before the replacement. that one is in very good shape, though it doesn't look it from the pic. that is the south side, so it gets all the sun and stays very warm, so less stress on the furnace.

my contractors argument is he gave me the same approx size as what was there. i talked to my tennant today, and she says she hears the steam/air and would call it loud but i would have to hear if it is the same. but, the specs on the old boiler are:

wells mcliean (sp?)

pressure 15psi
boiler a-b-4665
series 3
DOE cap 144
BTU/hour 108
net IRB rating 450

so, it appears this one (and the one i had before) was too big for the system too. on the apart side, there are 2 more radiators, would be about the same as my two upstairs ones. but based on the specs, 450 is still too big.

i just want to know for sure that i have to get this guy to do a new one for me. just curious about why i had one to begin with that was too big for my system, but it seemed to work ok, but some of the rads were loud. i really want to avoid having to get another new furnace, as i have a 4 week old and 22 month old and the smell was hoorific for the first week or two. really noxious.

again, thanks for any help you can give.

gehring_3

Boiler Job

1.) The contractor should have sized the new boiler based on the actual connected load (or anticipated load if you always intended to re-connect those other rads anyway) NOT based on what size boiler was in there before. All he did was repeat the same mistake the last installer did by not actually counting up all of the radiation. A lazy and costly error. I have the same boiler as you, but I have 16 radiators totalling 462 sq. feet of EDR.

2.) As others have alluded to here, the near-boiler piping they performed is wrong, especially the "bull-headed" Tee and lack of equalizer. You can call Burnham directly, ask for the Tech. Dept., and have them fax you a proper piping diagram (ask for the one showing two (2) supply risers out of the boiler) If that piping is not followed exactly the boiler will not work properly. But even if that is fixed, your boiler is still too big.

John Conway

two boilers in the duplex?

I'm a homeowner with only elementary knowledge.

Do I understand this is a duplex, that you are the owner & your tenant also has a boiler? If all that is so, was the building always a duplex or was it split some time ago? Perhaps in the dim mists of time there was ONE boiler and ONE system. Sounds like you're short a few rads in your side - what about your tenant/neighbor? I can imagine a series of events which cut one system in two, replaced a boiler that might have been closer to size, duplicated the bad decision, etc.

If this more or less what happened and it is your property, what about reconstituting the whole-house steam system? You could maybe use thermostatic radiator valves to even things out through the two halves. Work the fuel costs into the lease or whatever. Just a thought (& maybe I misunderstand).

lost in steam

yes

you may be right--something changed at some point b/c were all the rads are there are smaller holes, like water lines. so, there very well may have been just one heating system at some point, but it hasn't been that way for a long time. i think it is better to have two different boilers so the tennant takes care of their own heat and their own oil, especially with how the cost of oil changes. let the tennant deal.

however, you are right--i think i am going to have trouble finding a steam boiler to match what i need. can anyone recommend a good boiler for under 200 sq feet????

lost in steam

so basically my house is too small for steam

that is what it sounds like. my half of the duplex (a side by side) with only 4-6 radiators is just too small for steam. unfortunatley, i think it will cost too much do do something different, so i have to do something to get a boiler that will work. ugh......

Unknown

I would stay with Burnham

the 3 section V8 has the lowest Sq. Ft. of steam rating of any oil boiler we install . Combine this boiler with an oversized and properly piped near boiler header and I think the system will be dynamite . Where are you located ? If things don't work out with this contractor , there's plenty of steam experts here itching to fix your system .

lost in steam

albany, ny

area. lower renesselaer county, 15 min from downtown albany.

at this point, i think i am stuck with my contrator unless i can get him to agree to bring in an expert.

gehring_3

Question for the Steam Experts

What about removing two section of the V85 to turn it into a V83? That way instead of having to buy a whole new boiler they would only need a new jacket cover and a smaller nozzle. Is that practical or is the labor to break the sections down not worth it? In any case the near boiler piping has to be disconnected and re-done anyway. Just a thought.

Ron Schroeder_2

Another question for the steam experts. Would it be a good idea to convert from steam to hot water since even a 3 section boiler would still be oversized?. Isn't oversizing less of a problem with hot water than steam.

Ron

Unknown

gehring

Actually , the front and back of the jacket would be the same . You would have to cut the sides and top down - a good pair of snips can work miracles . You would also need a smaller canopy top for the flue and new push nipples for the sections . The labor itself for knocking off a few sections wouldn't be too bad . But the cost of the new boiler parts and jacket would make just buying a new 3 section the better solution .

If it was my company that installed this boiler , I would take it and save it for the next 4 radiator job ( jk ) .

Unknown

You wouldn't

have the crazy noises to contend with anymore , going to hot water . But you still have the short cycling , high fuel bills , etc... , and add in the cost of converting to hot water .

Steamhead

I wouldn't convert it

This is a one-pipe system, and the extra set of needed pipes would drive the cost way up. Plus the existing ones may have weak spots that would leak under the much greater pressure a hot-water system requires.

The V-83, slightly downfired, should work fine.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"